Author Topic: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF  (Read 142830 times)

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2015, 08:07:39 AM »
2/Lt Medlicott certainly liked to get around he was held in the following camps: Heilberg, C�strin, Clausthal (I'm very happy here and do not wish to escape :)), Hannoversche M�nden, Ingolstadt, Mainz, Holzminden and Colberg.
He was shot and killed in Heldburg on the Colberger Strasse at distance marker 23.6 Kms while escaping. He was accompanied by Captain Stanley J Walter of 7th Bn Queens RW Surrey Regt. Who was also shot and died later in hospital.

Charlie
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 09:01:58 PM by Charlie »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #151 on: March 09, 2015, 08:59:47 AM »
Charlie,

Many thanks for that very interesting contribution.    Colditz springs to mind. Philip.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #152 on: March 21, 2015, 11:51:03 AM »
           2/Lt. (later Captain) Robert Finlayson Sinclair : 14th battalion Manchester Regt. & Royal Flying Corps.

Tracing the sequence of the military career of this officer has not been easy.  The records indicate that he was a 2nd Lt. on the 5th October 1915 in the Manchesters and later at Catterick Aerodrome where he was attached in that rank to No. 14 (Reserve) Squadron of the RFC, later holding the rank of Lt. and still with the Royal Flying Corps.

However, he saw active service with the 1/5th (The Sutherland & Caithness Highland) Battalion Seaforth Highlanders and again from the records, he is listed as a POW in the rank of Captain with the 5th Seaforths under date 21st March 1918 with a repatriation date of January 1919.  In this regard, returning POW's were interviewed in respect of the circumstances of their capture (as also in WW2), and I see that his papers are annotated "Exonerated Officers List".

I think it would be possible to say, that for some reason (medical down-grading?), he left the RFC and joined the 5th Seaforths, a battalion with roots in Caithness where the family lived.   As regards the 5th Seaforths on the 21st March 1918, they were part of 152 Infantry Brigade of the 51st (Highland) Division of the Third Army holding the line in front of Doignies.   It is clear from the Official History of the Great War, that the battalion suffered severely in the enemy advance of the 21st March and it must be presumed that it was during this fighting that Sinclair was taken prisoner.

After discharge from the army, it would appear that at some time later he took a post in Borneo, perhaps on a rubber plantation.   However, in December 1941 the Japanese entered the Second World War and in due course their army occupied Borneo.   Sinclair is recorded by the CWGC as a civilian death and dying during the month of September 1942.  He was 47 years old.  His name is recorded in the Civilian War Dead Roll of Honour in Westminster Abbey.

PhilipG.






Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #153 on: March 21, 2015, 04:41:09 PM »
Robert Finlayson Sinclair

Philip
He saw service on 17 Sqn in Salonika from October 1916 as a Flying Officer. He was captured, as you have rightly stated, at Dolgnies on 21 March 1918 while a Captain in C Coy. He was wounded in the left shoulder. He is listed as being moved from a PoW camp at Cambrai to Karlsruhe on 28.05.1918 and from Graudenz to Bad Colberg on a list dated 15.06.1918.
He was also awarded the Territorial Decoration, LG 16 May 1930, whilst serving with 4th/5th Seaforths

I have also found another RF Sinclair - Roy Fulton - 330560 Pte HLI, 2/Lt Manchesters, Lt RAF

Charlie

« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 05:43:27 PM by Charlie »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #154 on: March 22, 2015, 11:20:45 AM »
Charlie,

Thank you for your valuable help in this interesting matter including of course, "filling in" the gap as to his military career as a Lieutenant - you advising that he was flying on active service in Salonika with No. 17 Squadron RFC during that time.

As you know, the pattern in this thread is usually service in the Army followed by service in the RFC/RAF.  In this case Sinclair alters the pattern, for it ends in a return to the Army.  In view of the very high incidence of cases of malaria in Salonika and the consequence of the need to return such cases to the UK for recovery, I wonder if Sinclair succumbed to this disease and that his medical category thereafter did not fit him for flying duties?  Just a thought!

As regards his service with No. 17 Squadron RFC, I have not found any reference to his duties with that squadron.  What did emerge, however, was the list of obsolete aircraft the crews were compelled to fly.

Lastly, I cannot help wondering whether or not Sinclair came across the 13th Manchesters who were "soldiering on" in Salonika at that time?

Thanks again. PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #155 on: March 23, 2015, 10:20:29 AM »
medlicott wasn't in the manchesters,he was formerly RHA.

google. Harold Houdini medlicott

when his plane went down and he was captured,his observer was Arthur,whitten brown of alcock+brown fame

mack ;D
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 12:06:38 PM by mack »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #156 on: March 23, 2015, 12:19:41 PM »
Mack,

                                         Lt A.W.Brown : 3rd Manchesters

Thank you for directing me to that interesting web site re 2nd Lt. Medlicott of "Houdini" fame and also pointing out that Medlicott was not in the Manchesters, but formerly in the RHA.

I had another look at the piece on Lt.Brown's exploits and on re-reading, I do not think there was any suggestion that Medlicott was in the Manchesters, his name being included in the post merely because, on two occasions, he was Lt. Brown's pilot.  Thanks again. Regards, Philip.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #157 on: March 29, 2015, 08:36:56 AM »
                          Lieutenant Pelham La Trobe Foster : 1st Bn. Manchester Regt. & No. 40 Squadron RFC

This has been an interesting piece of research insofar as Lt. Foster became a casualty in a manner with which I had not hitherto come across.

He transferred to the RFC (from Overseas) arriving at Reading on the 25th August 1917.  From then on his flying training began, with postings to various units, including the Central Flying School at Upavon and an Air Gunnery School. By the 23rd February 1918 he was considered suitable for transfer to the Expeditionary Force for duties with No. 40 Squadron as a pilot qualified to fly SE5a aircraft, arriving at the squadron on the 27th of that month.

On the 9th March Lt. Foster was ordered to carry out an Operational Patrol and he left his base at just after 3 p.m. piloting a SE5a aircraft No.C 5348.  Later in the day he was posted as Missing in Action.  The records are interesting and are written as follows - "New Pilot: lost? Seen going towards Auchel? 5 p.m."   However, he is recorded in the List of Officers taken Prisoner under date 9th March 1918 in the rank of 2nd Lt. suggesting, perhaps, that his brief sojourn with the squadron did not provide sufficient time for him to be aware of his promotion.  He was repatriated on the 14th December 1918.

His flying duties were not to be over and he proceeded to the "Pool of Pilots" at Netheravon, finally to leave the Service on the 13th July 1919.

(Lt. Foster had a brother - Bernard La Trobe Foster - who was killed in action on the 23rd July 1916 whilst serving with the 19th Manchesters.  He is buried in the A.I.F Burial Ground at Flers.)

PhilipG.

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #158 on: April 03, 2015, 07:52:42 PM »
Lt La Trobe Foster

Philip
On 19.04.1917 he was gazetted to be Flying Officer (Observer) with seniority from 12.02.1917 and transferred to the General List. He was posted to 11 Sqn in June 1917 as a Flying Officer (Observer). He was captured at Noyelles and was held as a PoW at Lille, Karlsruhe, Landshut and Holzminden. He is consistently listed as being a Lieutenant in the ICRC records, so it would seem as though he was aware of his promotion.

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #159 on: April 04, 2015, 12:54:58 PM »
Charlie,

I thank you for your usual and helpful info. and it is pleasing to learn that he would be aware of his promotion.  Do you think that the source of some of the info. you quote (and I have seen), came from a RAF document prepared after the RFC amalgamation with the RAF (1.4.18), hence the reference to a rank of Flying Officer and, too, the back-dating references to 1917?  Thanks again. Philip.

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #160 on: April 04, 2015, 05:33:06 PM »
Charlie,

 Do you think that the source of some of the info. you quote (and I have seen), came from a RAF document prepared after the RFC amalgamation with the RAF (1.4.18), hence the reference to a rank of Flying Officer and, too, the back-dating references to 1917?  Thanks again. Philip.


Hello Philip,
The reference to "Flying Officer" had me somewhat confused as well. After a bit of digging it appears that prior to the adoption of the RAF ranks that we are now familiar with in 1919, the term "Flying Officer" would best described as a trade or an appointment. On qualification pilots and observers were appointed to the "Flying Officer Branch" which later became the General Duties Branch, they retained their army rank.
Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #161 on: April 05, 2015, 11:04:06 AM »
Charlie,

Thanks for that much needed and welcome clarification.  I was beginning to think on those lines, too, for the RAF equivalent of a 2nd Lt. as given by Cox & Co's POW list is Pilot Officer, which seemed strange to refer to him holding the rank of Flying Officer.  Following the research maxim "If in doubt, leave it out", I did so.

Returning to the RAF document again and the column headed "Outgoing Authority", do you think that the letters "RO" and "SRO" stand for "Routine Orders" and "Station Routine Orders" respectively?   My wartime attachment to the Junior Service was brief and somewhat loose, but I do seem to recall "Daily Routine Orders" being of some consequence as they obviously were in the period we are now researching.  Regards, Philip.

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #162 on: April 06, 2015, 10:18:03 AM »
Philip, I would certainly agree with SRO being Station Routine Orders (disregard them at your peril :) ) RO could also be Records Office. Trying to make sense of abbreviations nearly 100 years later is sometimes a bit of a problem as their meaning has sometimes changed over the years and what was self evident when they were used is not always evident today. I have been trying to find the meaning of "STHC" used in my Grandfathers  WW1 RAF service record for probably 15 years with no success.
Regards
Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #163 on: April 06, 2015, 11:42:36 AM »
Charlie,

Thanks once again for the info.  Regards, Philip.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #164 on: April 08, 2015, 10:40:14 AM »
                 No. 44340 Pte. Stanley Edward Pilbrow : 22nd Manchester Regiment & No. 20 Squadron RFC

This man originally served in the 16th Middlesex Regt. before being transferred to the 22nd Manchesters and eventually into the RFC in which service he was killed, still carrying the rank of Private soldier.

On the 27th July 1917, Pte. Pilbrow, together with his pilot, 2nd Lt. R.M.Makepeace was airborne over the Salient, flying in a FE2d aircraft No. A6548 of No. 20 Squadron RFC.  They were part of an operational patrol by a number of this squadron's aircraft designated to lure enemy aircraft (Albatros machines) into combat.  The operation resulted in a total of four Albatros aircraft being destroyed in the area Menin & Polygon Wood.

On the 15th August 1917, Pilbrow was again airborne, this time in FE2d No. A 5152, his pilot being 2nd Lt. C.H.Cameron.  Unfortunately, the engine was hit by enemy fire and the 'plane was forced to land, when it was then found that Pte. Pilbrow had been killed in the action.   He is buried in The Huts Cemetery, near Dickebusch.

The "victory" has been attributed to Werner Voss, but there is doubt whether or not his "claim" must relate to another No. 20 Squadron aircraft in which 2nd Lt. McLean and Gunner Owen became casualties.    PhilipG.