Author Topic: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF  (Read 141468 times)

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #345 on: April 09, 2016, 07:49:09 PM »
Harry Scott

Philip,
Harry Scott is on the RAF Muster Roll and is listed as being a Pte 2 Labourer, having previously been employed as an AM3 with the RFC. His RFC trade is given as "Misc (Labour)". His RAF number is one from a block issued to transfers to the RFC in February 1918. The Muster Roll gives his date of transfer as 29 January 1918.

Charlie


Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #346 on: April 09, 2016, 10:50:47 PM »
 Charlie,

Many thanks for that interesting information.   Somehow, I sensed you would come up with the answer as you often do.  There is possibly a bit of a flavour of ACH/GD in respect of his service with his new masters.   PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #347 on: April 10, 2016, 09:55:31 AM »
                2nd Lt. H. F. Jones  : 22nd Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC 

Contributed by my expert colleague - Charlie - to whom I give my thanks :-

"I believe it to be the HF Jones who was on 43 Squadron and appointed as FO (O) in June 1917. Flying with 2nd Lt. JGH Frew on 28.03.1917 in  a Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter they lost their way, the aircraft stalled near the ground 'landing' at 16 Sqn's base."

PhilipG

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #348 on: April 10, 2016, 10:40:06 AM »
             Re 2nd Lt. H.F.Jones

With reference to Jones' flight with 2nd Lt. Frew, I note that on the 16th April 1917, Lt. Frew together with No. 1130 Air Mechanic First Class Frank Russell as gunner were airborne in a Sopwith Strutter aircraft No.7804 of 43 Squadron, operating in the La Bassee area.   At 6.30.am. (British time) they had taken off, commencing a Line Patrol and recce.  During an engagement with the enemy, Lt. Frew was wounded and subsequently taken prisoner.

Air Mechanic Russell was reported KIA.  However, Russell is buried in Douai Communal Cemetery which was used from time to time by the Germans as a burial ground for British POW's.  It could supposed, that like his pilot, Russell was also wounded, made a POW and later died in enemy hands.   PhilipG..

timberman

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #349 on: April 10, 2016, 10:56:25 AM »
Philip
It looks like he died due to the engagement with the enemy.

Rank:
    Air Mechanic 1st Class
Service No:
    1130
Date of Death:
    16/04/1917
Age:
    22
Regiment/Service:
    Royal Flying Corps
 
    43rd Sqdn.
Grave Reference:
    A. 13.
Cemetery:
    DOUAI COMMUNAL CEMETERY
Additional Information:
    Son of Mr. and Mrs. Russell, of 65, Elm Grove, Brighton

Timberman

timberman

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #350 on: April 10, 2016, 11:06:35 AM »
On the soldiers effects register, it says that the date of death was
officially accepted as being on the 16/4/17, so maybe this was confirmed
at a later date by 2nd Lt. Frew.

Timberman

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #351 on: April 10, 2016, 11:16:34 AM »
Timberman,
 
Thank you.  I'm sure you are right. Take care. PhilipG.

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #352 on: April 10, 2016, 05:47:32 PM »
Philip,

Harry Scott
It does seem strange that he later transferred to the Labour Corps. One would imagine that his employment with the RAF would have been of a lighter nature than with the Labour Corps. I wonder if he was one of those hardy men who volunteered to work with the Graves Registeration Units.

HF Jones
Unfortunately I have not been able to ascertain his Christian names. It appears as though he did not apply for his medals so there is not a MiC to check and his casualty card is missing. The aircraft - A979 - was Struck off Charge due to the damage caused. Thank you for your kind words but I am by no means an expert :)

Philip, Timberman,
Frank Russell
He was pronounced dead on arrival at the PoW Hospital, St Clotilde, Douai. He had suffered GSWs to the heart, chest and abdomen. He was reported through the Red Cross as having died on the 14th, 15th and 16th of April. As the combat occured on the 16th it looks like someone at records got their Abacus out and decided that the 16th must have been his date of death.

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #353 on: April 11, 2016, 07:17:36 AM »
Charlie,

Thank you for your continuing interest.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #354 on: April 14, 2016, 05:16:14 PM »
        Lt. James C. Walker :  Manchester Regt. RFC & RAF (205 Squadron)

This officer's military career began by serving with the King's Liverpools where he reached the rank of Corporal.   Still holding this rank, he was transferred to the Manchester Regiment with the service number of 44243.  Later, he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps in which service he was commissioned on the 1st May 1917.

On the 7th September 1918, together with his pilot, Lt. D.J.T. Mellor, Lt Walker was flying in a DH4 aircraft No. A 7587 of No. 205 RAF Squadron.  They had left their base that morning at 8.30.a.m. on a recce. patrol, but failed to return.  Both men were reported MIA, but later it was confirmed that Lt. Walker was a POW, whilst Lt. Mellor was reported as being KIA.  Lt. Mellor has no known grave and his name is recorded on the Arras Flying Services Memorial.

It is not known at which stage Lt. Mellor was killed.    If he was killed whilst airborne, it would fall to Lt. Walker to bring the aircraft safely to the ground, presumably behind enemy lines.   To do so would be difficult, although some machines were fitted with rudimentary flying controls to enable a crew member in the rear cockpit to effect such a manoeuvre.  I do not know whether or not the DH4 was so equipped.

Lastly, I am not clear about the squadron designation during the time that Lt. Walker was serving with it during 1917.  For instance, would it be a Naval squadron with the prefix No.5?  This suggests that the patrol could have been over the sea, as in the unit account no indication is given in respect of patrol area.  PhilipG.
 

Offline charlie

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #355 on: April 14, 2016, 07:23:52 PM »
Lt Walker.

Philip,
Did you start with the Naval Sqn purposely?  :)

Till the amalgamation of the RNAS and the RFC, 205 Sqn was designated 5 (Naval) Sqn. As you are aware the RNAS Sqns were renumbered on 1st April 1918 by adding 200 to their previous number. I wonder why the RFC Sqns were not renumbered instead, the RN is not usually shy about proclaiming it's status as the senior service.

5 (Naval) Sqn was employed on bombing operations targeting the occupied Belgian ports and also German airfields. The Sqn was attached to 5 Bde RFC in February 1918, the duties it carried out remained the same.

Lts Walker and Mellor are not listed in the ICRC files, there are only enquiry cards which both note negative replies to the enquiries. Lt Walker's RAF casualty card records him as suffering from a GSW to the right thigh which also caused a fracture of the bone. It further states that he was treated by the Germans in their hospitals in Gent and Stettin. He had been admitted to 8 Stationary Hospital Wimereux on 28.12.1918 and repatriated on 13.01.1919 (London) and later transferred to a Hospital in Liverpool.

I have been unable to ascertain if DH4 aircraft were fitted with controls for the Observer. I think we must assume that Lt Mellor lived at least long enough to land the aircraft.

Charlie
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 07:57:05 PM by Charlie »

timberman

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #356 on: April 14, 2016, 07:53:48 PM »
One variant that the British flew did have dual controls.
according to 'British Aeroplanes 1914-1918' by J.M. Bruce.
On page 171,
"The observer had full dual control, with duplicated altimeter
and air-speed indicator; his control column was detachable".

The Americans made several variants with dual controls.   

Saying that, there is no proof that they were flying one of these.

Timberman
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 07:59:38 PM by timberman »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #357 on: April 16, 2016, 09:45:55 AM »
Charlie,
 Lt.Walker.

This was a difficult piece of research, as the only thing I could really discover was his airborne operation in September 1918 with 205 RAF Squadron.  The possibility that in the period May 1917 to September 1918 he was flying with No. 5 RNAS crossed my mind.  But I'm sure I'm adrift on that one.

Your remarks re the Senior Service's attitude to flying.   I would remind you that their Lordships only "took over" the FAA in 1939.   Aircraft named Skua and Roc come to mind - machines which I saw at Lee on Solent even in '43.

This establishment (an administrative one, too) was a former RAF Station, then encompassing an extensive barracks accommodation for All Hands, including senior and essential RAF NCO's, who continued to serve with the Fleet.  The Wardroom was a place of some style, sometimes graced by the presence of the Flag Officer Naval Air Stations.  The Junior Service in peacetime had lived well. PhilipG.



Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #358 on: April 16, 2016, 09:57:09 AM »
Timberman,

Re Lt. Walker.

Thank you for your information that some Observers could have been flying in aircraft fitted with dual controls.  How very sensible, especially when giving flying instruction to pupil flyers.    Sadly, no parachutes, though.  PhilipG.

timberman

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #359 on: April 16, 2016, 07:58:38 PM »
Your welcome Philip

Timberman