Author Topic: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF  (Read 108741 times)

timberman

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 02:20:17 PM »
My affiliation with George Chadwick is purely by name and but have know about him for awhile.

But something you have put about him Philip came as a bit of a surprise.

I�ve had a (very) long association with 19sqn, so to find that George Chadwick

was one of the first pilots with the squadron was a nice surprise.

Formed 1915, went to France 1916.

Moto   
   Latin:Possunt quia posse videntur
(Translation: "They can because they think they can")

Also has the Dolphin in the crest.

Timberman
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 08:55:23 PM by Charlie »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2014, 08:25:32 PM »
Glad to have been of service. Watch your airspeed. Philip.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 10:39:15 AM »
These two officers transferred to the RFC/RAF from the 5th battalion.  It would be interesting to know where they served prior to their transfers.

2nd Lt. Norman Butterworth RFC

Lt. Butterworth was attached to No. 70 Squadron RFC, the squadron operating Sopwith "Strutter" aircraft, a two-seater machine designed for reconnaissance and bombing duties.  Early in the afternoon of the 10th May 1917 a "Strutter" type aircraft No.A8174 was on an operational flight with Captain R.S. Lucy piloting the 'plane and Lt. Butterworth acting as his Observer.   Somewhere over Morlancourt they were in combat with enemy aircraft and shot down.   Captain Lucy was unwounded in the fighting, but Lt. Butterworth had been killed in the combat.  He is buried in Bray Military Cemetery.

2nd Lt. Robert Hilton RAF. No. 13 (Corps) Squadron.

On the 6th April 1918, there was concern by GHQ that the enemy were about to launch an attack on the Portuguese Division.  (In the event, the German attack went foward three days later).   On the morning of the 6th April, 2nd Lt. Hilton (Observer) and Lt. S.T.Payne (Pilot) were on photographic operations flying in a RE8 type aircraft.   They failed to return to base.  As no details were available at that time regarding their failure to return, both officers were listed as MIA.    On 29th April advice was received that they had been shot down and had subsequently died of their wounds.   They have no known grave and their names are accordingly on the Arras Flying Services Memorial.
PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2014, 06:30:29 AM »
hiya Philip
according to SDGW,2/Lt Hilton was listed as "DIED",it also says he was in the 16th manchesters and the date of death was 29-4-18,the CWGC list him as died on 6-4-18.resided at 4 marine drive southport.
according to his will,he died on 6-4-18,5th manchesters and living at 4 st.malo rd,wigan

2/Lt butterworth died at the 48th CCS at bray.

mack ;D

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2014, 12:40:12 PM »
Mack,
 Once again thanks for your info.   During this research I discovered, as you have certainly done, that there is an interesting mystery here.

My research indicated that both Hilton and his "driver" - Lt.S.T.Payne- died on the 6th April 1918. (CWGC).   "Officers Died in the Great War 1914-19" states that Hilton died on 29th April 1918.  However, notwithstanding that both aviators were flying together, Lt. Payne is indicated in that publication as dying on the 6th April 1918.

Turning to the squadron report, this indicates that on the 6th April 1918 both officers were MIA.   It also reports that both officers DOW on 29th April 1918.  Again turning to "Officers Died" it reports Hilton as being in the 16th battalion.

I do not know whether or not you have ever raised a query with the CWGC, but they are adamant that their source of material is always correct and emanates from the War Office itself.   Thus, in those circumstances, I tend to feel that not only did those brave officers die on the 6th April 1918, but also that Robert Hilton served in the 5th battalion.   (But when?).    Do you agree?  Again thanks for your input. Philip.

Offline Pete Th

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2014, 01:15:15 PM »
Philip, a little bit more information about 2nd Lt Norman Butterworth:

http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=5191.0

Regards
Pete
Remembering

Pte Sidney Lee (36719), 2nd Battalion, Worcestershire Regt - dow 18.02.17
Sgt Charles Roberts (13668), 11th Bn, Manchester Regiment - kia 18.05.18
Bombardier John Hesford (70065), 147th Heavy Battery, RGA dow - 04.09.18
Pte Sidney Lee (4131324), 8th Bn, Cheshire Regiment -  kia 12.03.41

Offline mack

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2014, 01:35:18 PM »
hiya Philip.
the CWGC accepted the deaths of servicemen/woman from lists provided by the war office,theres no guarantee that either of them knew the exact date,it will probably remain one of the mysteries of the war.

mack ;D

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 12:13:11 PM »
Pete and Mack.

Re. N.Butterworth RFC

Thanks for your comments.  Most interesting and intriguing, too.   As you will have seen, the date of death I have (10th May 1917) differs from that given by the CWGC (9th May 1917) and that on Lt. Butterworth's headstone. 

Dave refers to a Sopwith 2 being downed by Vzfw Dilcher, Jasta 5.  My info. states that this aircraft (also No. 70 Sqdrn.) was shot down on the 9th May 1917, the Observer/Gunner being AM 2nd Class G.D.Breakfield, whilst the pilot was 2nd Lt. W.J.Gayner.  Both aviators were KIA.

Pete: As regards the headstone, I wonder if the inscription requested by the NOK was considered by the CWGC to be too long to be accommodated in the usual position at the foot of the headstone?

Mack:  Your remarks re the accuracy of deaths seem to come over as particularly appropriate in this instance.  Thanks again. Philip.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2014, 01:30:15 PM »
Captain H.B.Coomber No. 45 Squadron RFC & 8th Bn. Manchester Regt.

Captain Coomber was KIA on 12th October 1917, the opening day of the First Battle of Passchendaele, a year after his transfer to flying duties.  To say that conditions for the attack were bad would be an understatement, indeed by early afternoon a halt was called because the ground was waterlogged.  This does not mean that the RFC were inactive, but the cost was heavy amongst the ten squadrons detailed for co-operation with the attacking ground forces.  Among those killed on that day was Captain Coomber, a fighter pilot with No.45 Squadron flying a Sopwith Camel aircraft, a single-seater biplane, a machine of good repute.

He had taken off on an Offensive Patrol at 10.45 a.m. and 35 minutes later he became involved in combat with German fighters of Jasta 35,being shot down east of Houthulst.  His failure to return to base resulted in him being reported as missing in action, but later he was reported to have been killed in the combat.   His grave lies in Dadizeele New British Cemetery.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2014, 02:52:39 PM »
2nd.Lt. J.N.Washington No. 8 Squadron RFC & Manchester Regt.

This officer belonged to the same squadron as 2nd.Lt Glen and indeed, like Glen had transferred from the Manchesters to the RFC.   As in the case of Lt. Glen, sadly we do not know in which battalion of the Regiment Lt.Washington had served.   Details of Lt.Glen's RFC service are reported in a previous post on this site.

It so happened that Lt. Washington was airborne on reconnaissance duties in a BE2c aircraft on the same day (25th Sept.1915-Battle of Loos) as Glen and his Observer were involved in bombing operations over the same battlefield.   However,Washington and his Observer - 2nd Lt. M.W.Greenhow- were not so fortunate as to return to base, insofar as they were shot down by enemy action south of Metz-en-Couture and both made POW's.   It would seem that Lt. Washington had been wounded, for he died in German hands at Bapaume on the 2nd October 1915.   He is buried in Achiet-Le-Grand Comm.Cem. Extn.   As regards his Observer, Lt. Greenhow, he was sent to a German POW camp and survived the War, returning home from Holland on the 18th November 1918.

I notice that Lt. Greenhow was in a group of about a dozen officers who were interned in Holland in April 1918.  It would be interesting to learn of the reason for this group transfer from German custody, which was not the only transfer of this type to take place. PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2014, 12:09:33 PM »
2nd. Lieutenant Norman Field  No. 25 Squadron RFC & 5th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

On the 15th August 1917, the Canadian Corps attacked the enemy positions on Hill 70, an attack which proved to be successful.  The previous day, the RFC was in action carrying out its usual photographic, patrolling and bombing duties over the Loos battlefield.  No. 25 Squadron, flying DH4 type aircraft was one of the squadrons detailed for bombing enemy positions on that day; 2nd. Lt. Field as Observer and with his Canadian pilot 2nd.Lt.P.L.McGavin airborne in their machine No. A2159 in the early evening.  The DH4 was a two-seater light bomber with one forward-firing Vickers machine gun for use by the pilot and a single Lewis gun operated by the observer/gunner.

Unfortunately, they were attacked by 20 enemy aircraft of Jasta 37 and not surprisingly were shot down and killed.   The squadron reports that the aircraft "broke up", indicating perhaps, that these brave flyers
fell from the sky to their death, no parachutes for aircrew being issued.  The wreckage of their machine was located near Wingles.   Both officers are buried in adjacent graves in Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery at Souchez.

The shooting down of this machine was ascribed to Leutnant Ernst Udet, who was to become an "Ace" with the eventual destruction of 62 Allied aircraft being attributed to him.  Udet survived the Great War and held in some esteem by Hermann Goring, served with the German Air Force in WW2.  He committed suicide in November 1941.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2014, 03:04:04 PM »
On the 16th September 1917, Lt.Herbert Haslam of No. 6 Squadron RFC and previously of the 14th Manchesters was piloting a RE8 type aircraft over the Ypres Salient with Corporal A.J.Linlay acting as his observer/gunner.   They took off from their base in the late afternoon to carry out a photographic exercise.  However, whilst in the region of Becelaere they were attacked by two enemy aircraft of Jasta 18.  Haslam managed to throw the aircraft into a controlled spin in an effort to escape from his attackers, but presumably crashed to the ground.   The Log reports both aviators as being killed in action, but it would seem that Cpl. Linlay survived as I can find no record of his death.  Lt. Haslam has no known grave and his name is thus recorded on the Flying Services Memorial in Arras.   PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2014, 08:37:51 PM »
Captain P.C.Cowan was a fighter pilot with No. 56 Squadron RFC having previously served with the 8th Bn.Manchester Regt.  On the 8th November 1917 two squadron aircraft (SE5a's) were ordered on a combat patrol.  The aircraft took off around 8.25 a.m., Captain Cowan flying No. B4883 whilst Lt.F.R.C.Cobbold was piloting No. B630.  The two pilots separated and in less than an hour later both men were in action with enemy pilots of Jastas 26 & 36.  Cobbold's aircraft was seen to be out of control and to crash over enemy territory, Cobbold surviving and, it is understood, being taken prisoner.

Captain Cowan's aircraft was observed to go into a spin which, perhaps through wounds, he was not able to counteract and with his aircraft out of control, he plunged to the ground and to his death.  He has no known grave and his name is recorded on the Flying Services Memorial in Arras.  I notice that 56 Squadron lost three aircraft that day, although the  pilot of one of the 'planes was uninjured.

Of interest, is that Captain P.C.Cowan's brother (Capt. Sidney E. Cowan)also served in the RFC (29 Sqdn.) and like his elder brother was also a fighter pilot.  Moreover, he belonged to that band of men who are regarded as "Air Aces" having in 1916 destroyed a total of seven enemy aircraft; indeed he is recognised as one of the very first "Aces" of the RFC.  Alas, whilst on an Offensive Patrol he was the victim in a mid-air collision and was killed.  He was 19 years old and the holder of a MC & two bars.




Second Lieut. E.W.Lindley was formerly serving with the 9th Manchesters before joining the Royal Flying Corps and reporting for duty with No.16 Squadron in February 1917.  On the 16th February  he was  ordered to fly a BE2c type aircraft No. 4179, taking with him 2nd. Lt. L.V. Munn.  His oders were to make himself familiar with the location of the British and German lines in the Arras sector.   The aircraft was airborne at 11.50 a.m. and some ten minutes later was east of Arras when it was shot down by Lt. K.Allmenroder of Jasta 11.  In the subsequent crash, Lt Munn was killed, but Lt. Lindley, obviously badly wounded was made a POW.  Sadly he died two days later. PhilipG.
e.w lindlay was buried by the germans in vitry-en-artois communal cemetery,his body was exhumed during battlefield clearance and buried in brown copse cemetery
son of Edward,thomas+margaret,elizabeth lindley,"woodfield"russells crescent,horley,surrey,he was 20yrs old[died at vitroyen]

mack ;D

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2014, 08:32:17 AM »
Mack,

Many thanks for that. Philip.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2014, 12:20:08 PM »
On the 5th September 1917 Lt. William Shields, formerly of the 14th Manchesters and now serving with No. 45 Sqdn. RFC was detailed, along with 2nd Lt. A.O.MacNiven, to patrol over the Ypres Salient, each officer piloting a single seat fighter known as the Sopwith Camel.

The records show that both aircraft took off at 7.10.a.m. carrying out patrolling duties as instructed, in the region of Comines.  However, around 9.0.a.m. they were seen in combat in that area with enemy aircraft and both pilots were shot down, in the case of Lt.Shields, his machine crashing in No Man's Land, and that of Lt.MacNiven falling to the ground near Zillebeke.

Lt. Shields was buried in Voormezeele Enclosures No. 1 & 2.   Lt.MacNiven has no known grave and is commemorated on the Flying Services Memorial  in Arras.




On the 18th October 1918 2nd Lt. S.Hall, formerly of the Manchester Regiment, (battalion not known), piloting a RE8 type aircraft of No. 4 Squadron RAF, together with his Observer, 2nd Lt.G.P.Blake was on a reconnaissance patrol in the region of Tourcoing.  For several days previously the weather had been such as to limit the amount of flying by the RAF that could be undertaken.  Thus, many thousands of enemy soldiers were able to continue their retreat eastwards and unscathed, thereby avoiding heavy casualties which would most certainly have occurred had it been possible to undertake artillery and aircraft attacks.

Nothing is known regarding these two airmen's failure to return to base which they had left around noon, and whilst Lt.Hall is buried in Tourcoing (Port Neuville) Comm. Cem., the fate of 2nd Lt. G.P.Blake is indicated as "KIA?".   
PhilipG.