Author Topic: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg  (Read 24133 times)

Offline Tim Bell

  • ****
  • Posts: 1,405
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2016, 12:14:53 PM »
Gerry,
I recommend the 2nd chapter of Michael Stedman's Pals book for this question.  He suggests the middle class men were unhappy enlisting with working class comrades and the Pals movement was successful because the recruits would not be placed in a battalion with unknown men as their companions. 
I've read elsewhere (can't find source) that the clerks, warehouseman - and teachers didn't feel compelled to enlist in the original Kitchener Service Battalions, because soldiering was not perceived as their duty.  Clearly the numerous overseas volunteers for the Territorials were an exception to this.
As pointed out by Philip, the Public Schools Battalions were another recruiting ground for teachers and effectively another Pals Battalion - formed on University or Public School / Grammar education.  From what I've seen from teachers from these routes, most received commissions - with notable exceptions like Sgt Tawney.  Many PBS men later received commissions and the Battalions were merged.  I was also uncomfortable reading Graves' observations about the men that remained.
It would appear the class system was bridged in other respects.  The 15th Royal Scots - Manchester Scottish drew in men from different backgrounds and we can then look at the Sportsmans Bttns. 
The recruitment choices and decisions in the first few months of the War are certainly intriguing.  The average Manchester Education Committee teacher became an NCO in the Pals.  We the see the Public Schools teachers as their Officers - with loads from Edinburgh (See Aubrey Harris referred to by Charlie May and a colleague of Lt Col Elstob VC)
Tim
ps I hadn't realised the Rifle Brigade and Border Regiment had been recruiting in Manchester because the original Service Bttns were becoming filled in Aug/Sept.  (Suggesting hard to enlist, even if men chose to) This was seen as belittling to the City and another reason to build the Regiment.
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Online mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,515
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2016, 09:08:32 AM »
tim.
the border regiment could recruit from anywhere it wanted due to the fact that the border areas were sparsely populated,making it hard for them to get recruits,the rifle brigade and KRRC had no specific area for recruiting because both units had more than three battalions and would need a large area to draw men from.

the 11th manchesters were raised from former regular and territorial soldiers as well as men who were serving,the idea was that it would only need a short period of time to refresh these men who had already been trained,its original destination was france or Belgium.

theres one thing about Manchester teachers that's not widely known,the Manchester police force lost over 600 police officers from its force at the outbreak of war due to enlistment,this left the police badly undermanned,many teachers were recruited as special policemen to fill up the ranks of those who had enlisted,they were ideal candidates because their school hours ended mid afternoon and there was no school at weekends,so they were able to work as bobbies during the evenings,and cover the weekends.

mack ;D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 07:57:00 PM by mack »

Online PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,269
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2016, 12:15:31 PM »
Although this thread relates to teachers in the Manchester Pals, I would mention that the "University & Public Schools Brigade" was composed of the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st battalions of the Royal Fusiliers.  Three relatives of mine served in the Brigade.  Two enlisted in Manchester and served in the 19th battalion.  One was a lowly paid hand, working in a Bleach works in Whitefield, Manchester.  The second recruit had a managerial status post in the Manchester hatting trade.  The third to join the Regiment was a Law Student at Manchester University and he enlisted in the 20th battalion and won the MM on the La Bassee front, only to fall later in the battle for High Wood in 1916 - a battle well known to the Manchesters.

The Brigade left for France in November 1915.  In respect of the 18th, 19th and 21st battalions, these units were disbanded on the 24th April 1916 having, it would seem, being denuded of men deemed suitable for commissioned rank.

In the case of the 20th battalion however, it would appear, that their CO - Colonel C.H.Bennett DSO - was reluctant to recommend any of his men for commissions, resulting in the battalion being pretty well as intact as it was when it was first formed. 

On the 20th July 1916, Robert Graves' "chocolate soldiers" attacked High Wood and in the resulting battle incurred casualties totalling 397 men.  The style and make-up of the 20th battalion was never to be the same again, but it carried on with new personnel and was disbanded in February 1918.

The publication of Graves' book in 1929, revealed a controversial statement concerning that battle in respect of the military behaviour of two Scottish Regiments and the 20th Royal Fusiliers.   Not surprisingly, this brought forward some anger from the regiments involved and in due time Graves made a form of retraction.

To conclude.  The Law Student is buried in a cemetery in France, the hatting trade manager was discharged on medical grounds and survived the war, albeit in poor health.  As regards the lowly factory worker.  On the disbandment of the 19th Royal Fusiliers in April 1916, he was transferred to the 22nd Bn. Royal Fusiliers serving in "B" Coy.  On the 23rd May, the battalion was in the Talus des Zouaves and ordered to attack.  The attack was cancelled, but "B" Coy. never received the cancellation message. In going forward their casualties in All Ranks numbered 87.  Our Fusilier has no known grave, although we feel we know the field in which he must now lie. Finally, it may be felt that this post is an example of how the social classes in Manchester went to war in 1914 and could also apply to the Manchester Pals battalions.  PhilipG.


Offline Gerryh

  • ***
  • Posts: 87
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2016, 07:34:21 PM »
I wish to thank you for the opportunity to air this topic, and in particular for the fulsome and very helpful replies that were in answer to my thoughts.  Gerryh

Online PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,269
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2016, 07:30:16 AM »
Gerryh,

Glad to have been of help.  Take care,  PhilipG.

Online PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,269
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2017, 10:39:27 AM »
        2nd Lieutenant Charles Lewis : 6th Manchesters attd. 16th Manchesters

Some additional information is now available in respect of this officer previously mentioned in this thread.

He enlisted in the 10th Devonshires on the 13th September 1914 and in 1915 went with that battalion to Salonica for service with the British Salonica Force.  He was later commissioned into the 6th Manchesters and in September 1917 was attached to the 16th battalion.  He was killed in action at Manchester Hill on the 21st March 1918.  PhilipG

Offline wendyg

  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2017, 11:18:42 AM »
Thanks. I shall attempt to find out where he taught ;)

Offline Chad1847

  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2017, 01:31:28 PM »
While researching men from St Chad's Cheetham commemorated on the church's war memorial there are 3 men who taught at the school who were killed in action. One, Daniel McIntyre, Cpl 11252 18th Bn Manchester Reg was killed in the battle for Guillemont on 30th July 1916. He had been teaching at the school since Jan 1899 and enlisted on 17th May 1915. 2 teachers appointed to replace him and 2 other members of staff who had joined the colours were also killed - Joseph Parker (listed on the NUT Roll of Honour but who I am struggling to identify any further) and James Louis Riley 2nd Lieut. 1st/7th King's Liverpool Reg, killed in action 29th Sept 1918.
2 teachers survived and returned to the school after the war: Gustave Travers who attested 14th Dec 1914 and joined the 18th Bn Manchester Reg. He was promoted to Lance Corporal on 28th Jan 1915 and transferred to the Royal Engineers (Chemists Coy) on 29th Aug 1915. He later became Headmaster of the school retiring in 1952.
Henry J Moon,(incidentally son of the then Headmaster of St Chad's ) who left for the war on 19th Feb 1915 and served in Royal Lancaster Reg (King's Own).Both these men are listed on the Manchester Education Committee of teachers serving in the forces in 1916.
Chad1847

Offline wendyg

  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2017, 05:50:28 PM »
Thanks very much for this.  It has filled in some of the professional detail that  i  hadn't got from the Book of Honour.  i have been concentrating on those who worked for Manchester Education Committee and have also used the Teacher Registration index cards. NUT lists and ;) the details other members of the forum have sent me. i have traced their platoons and companies for those in the Pals and with 1911 census studies found out some interesting stuff such as teachers who lived and boarded together, were in the same school. joined up together and placed in the same platoon.  They seemed to get rapid promotion and in some cases early commissions - the 'business' of teachers in both meanings of the word! I hope to eventually post something on the forum. Being a teacher myself I often think about  life in the trenches for a a teacher 100 years ago and now - transition and experience for both!