Author Topic: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763  (Read 8985 times)

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2014, 05:51:19 PM »
Thanks Neil,
I'll have another look later.  
Bert Payne confirms presence of 2/Lt Henriques later in the interview and mentions how Bert had been asked by him to stay with the Bttn, rather than go to Army Cyclists.
I can't remember when 2/Lt Nash arrived, but Bert didn't contradict the prospect of Henriques leaving soon after arrival in Maricourt - or even before.
Tim
Ps now confirmed Bert Payne must have lost Henriques as Scout Officer before they arrived at Maricourt
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 10:39:55 PM by Tim Bell »
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timberman

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2014, 11:05:56 PM »
 Tim
Nash joined the 16th towards the end of May
1915 at Grantham and was given command of
No 16 Platoon of D company.
Page 30
The war diaries would say when  Henriques and
Rhodes left the Bn as they both left at the same
time.
Around the 28th Nov 1915 while they were at
Bonneville I think.
Timberman
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 11:12:35 PM by timberman »

Offline Polly Rice

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2016, 01:10:19 PM »
Hi Tim
Just found your conversation while googling my grandfather Archie Willis. So I've joined up to ask where you found the information. I know it's along time after your original so I hope you are still using this site.

Polly Rice

Offline charlie

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 06:55:28 PM »
Hi Polly,
Welcome to the forum. Tim is still a regular visitor to forum and I am sure he will be along presently to answer your question.

Charlie

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 09:31:35 PM »
Hello Polly,
A big welcome to the forum from me too.  I am still here, but usually off wandering in a strange tangent - currently the Co-Op!

I stumbled over Archie Willis with reference to a book published of Diary of one of the Officer's in Archie's Battalion.

"These ration carriers were the bravest men in the Battalion.  They were consistently shelled but never failed to feed their platoons.  Wallace and Bell carried rations for my own Platoon."  P46 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Diary-Unprofessional-Soldier-Nash/dp/0948251484

With the help of the forum we worked out that "Bell" was my Grandad's cousin James Frederick Bell and "Wallace" was Archie Willis (your Grandad) of the same Platoon - see http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=4675.0. For the Platoon Roll and photo.  If you can spot Archie, please let us know.
They were also both former employees of Manchester Stockbrokers and I have photo of the Rolls if you would like to see them.

Nash was referring to events in the first few months of 1916 - prior to the Battle of the Somme.  It's great to share data with relatives a whole century later.

Tim

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Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016, 09:50:53 PM »
Polly,
Archie Willis enlisted 3/9/1914. Discharged wounded (I think) 14/6/1918 with Silver War Badge.  In 1911 he was a stockbrockers clerk resident 21 Havelock St, Lower Broughton, Salford with parents William and Elizabeth + brother Leonard.
James Bell and my Grandad Arthur Bell of 17th Bttn were also discharged wounded.  It's hard to guess when Archie may have been wounded.
Tim
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Offline Polly Rice

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2016, 12:17:52 AM »
Hi Tim
Thanks for your reply. Archie was wounded on 23rd April 1917 while we think his company was in support as 'bombers' (hand grenades) moving from Heninel towards Cherisy. He was wounded in his back and face and crawled back towards the British lines. My dad told us that he was trying to carry Capt. Megson back when he was shot. How true this is I don't know. We have letters from him to Gertie, his wife (my Gran) from General Hospital No. 6 Rouen. From there he went to 76 Brook Street to have the left side of his face repaired. Before all this he was also at Trones Wood where he went from Private to Acting CSM in 2 days. All this started when Gran died and the letters were found along with his discharge papers and civil employment folder. I also have photos from Heaton Park when he first joined up. His army records were in the Burnt Docs box but are now on Ancestry but are in several bits and not complete. I also have 2 letters from a Lt. Harry A. Wright 16th Manchesters who I still have to research. Some of it I know I'll never find out but it's fascinating trying.
Polly

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2016, 07:18:08 PM »
Hi Polly,
What  a great story you have. I certainly recommend Nash's Diaries.  You'll find out much more about Megson (incl Photos) because the 2 Officers were friends.  There's a great photo of Megson in Montauban Alley for example.  You will find you receive much more visibility by starting your own Thread on your grandad.  It would be wonderful if you could share some of your treasure trove too.  I'm no expert on the 16th Bttn, but you never know what may come out from the other forum members.

Tim
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Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2016, 03:44:30 PM »
hiya polly
2/Lt wright was harry,augustine wright,he was formerly a staff sgt in the army service corps before being commissioned as a 2/Lt in the manchesters on 6th july 1916,resided 9 bridge end,warwick,i think he emigrated to the USA[long island]after the war,he received a silver war badge but I don't know wether it was for wounds or ill health[badge No341175].

I think archie was wounded three times,definately twice,on the third occasion,he was sent to 78 brook st,london,it was a auxillary hospital for the 1st London general hospital,it was the home of mr joseph,william baxendale,the late MD of the phoenix assurance company[37 beds for men with facial injuries]theres some confusion about where he worked,according to archie,he was employed for 4yrs before the war for smith+co,withy grove but he appears in the roll for the Manchester stock exchange

mack ;D
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 03:57:49 PM by mack »

Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2016, 04:16:28 PM »
archies son sgt 946150 roy willis was killed in action on 19th august 1941 while serving with 101st squadron RAF.

mack ;D

Offline Polly Rice

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2016, 12:53:53 PM »
Hi Mack
Thanks for the information on Harry Wright and the hospital. I know he was wounded twice as he was allowed to wear 2 gold stripes. I think the first time was 10/10/16 if I've translated the notes in the margin on his discharge papers correctly.

 Along with Archies letters we found all the letters from Roy and Norman (my dad), Roy's medals and his flying log. I also have Dad's flying log, silk escape map and what appears to be the war diary for his squadron. Along with lots of photos.So I've got lots to research from both wars as well as sorting the family tree. Gran had kept them for sentimental reasons, I don't suppose she ever thought they would be fascinating historical documents.
Next is to buy Nash's War Diary.

I have a copy of 'The Manchester Regiment Sixteenth:Seventeenth Eighteen & Nineteenth Battalions 1914-1918' published by Sherratt and Hughes 1923 which was Archies. Is this the War Diary or is that something different?

Offline Polly Rice

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2016, 01:26:51 PM »
Hi Tim
I've looked at the platoon photo. I think that Archie Willis 7068 is on the third row 6th from right. I had my husband look independently and he agreed with me.
Polly

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2018, 08:10:55 AM »
Can someone enlighten me please?
I'd understood that men kept their Regimental numbers even if they moved between Battalions; so why did J F Bell (and many others) receive new numbers when they were posted to 25th/69th Bttn?
I also thought that the BWM/VM Rolls only provided the Bttn numbers for men serving Overseas.  As James didn't serve overseas in Reserve, why does the Medal Roll give 25th Bttn as his primary number?
I've seen a large number of 17th Bttn men with a similar Scenario and want to get a grip of the facts.  At the moment, I'll broadly assume that the final 25th Bttn No indicates they were discharged during hostilities. Can check this with SWB rolls.
As a contradiction to my theory, there are many 17th Bttn men who had the final 25th Bttn number, but no Star.  No idea what this means though...
Thanks in anticipation.
Tim
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 09:34:33 AM by Tim Bell »
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Offline Keith Brannen

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2018, 04:04:43 PM »
They would have received new numbers after the 25th became the 69th as of 1st September 1916, as it was technically no longer part of the Manchester Regiment. Since James Frederick Bell was discharged after receiving a new number, without re-joining the Manchester Regiment (where he would have reverted to his old number), then all his records would have been designated with the new number. Therefore that number would show up in the index rolls.

When compiling numbers near my grandfather's to try to determine when he was called up (Derby Scheme man) and which training battalion he went to, I noticed many whose numbers changed when those training battalions (25th, 26th, & 27th) changed. Any man who then served overseas after that date with the Manchester Regiment reverted to their original number.

In  the rolls, I have also seen some who were never part of the Manchester Regiment, who after serving overseas with another regiment (and obviously must have been injured) were then posted to the 2nd Garrison Battalion, and probably then discharged, and it shows that posting and number on their listing in the rolls.


Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2018, 04:11:16 PM »
Thanks for this.  I'd not recognised the 69th TR as being outside the Regiment.  This makes sense.

PS Still a bit odd for new numbers to be recorded for Home service
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 07:43:28 PM by Tim Bell »
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