Author Topic: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763  (Read 9006 times)

Offline Tim Bell

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James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« on: July 12, 2013, 12:42:09 PM »
Hi Forum,

I may have discovered my Grandad's cousin's MIC.

James entered France on 8/11/15 and received 3 usual medals + SWB (14/875).  The 1911 Census tells me he was a stock brokers clerk living with parents at 39 Mawson Street, Chorlton on Medlock prior to enlistment.

The Roll of Honour lists him as 6957 in XIII Pln. D Cpy. of 16th Bttn. 

I will start searching, but any information would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance.


Tim

Note for me.  James is son of John Andrew, Richard's (GGDad) brother
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:02:48 PM by Tim Bell »
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Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 03:51:16 AM »
james frederick bell
son of john,andrew+sarah,ellen bell
worked at manchester stock exchange for mr a.w walton
age on enlistment 24yrs
lived at 178 hyde rd,ardwick
wounded on 1st july 1916 in the back+legs
older sister hannah,elizabeth
younger bros+sisters
leonard,richard
hilda,amelia
alexander
russell

mack ;D

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2013, 09:11:26 AM »
Mack,

Many thanks for this.  I will add the details to my Blog post.  Not strictly on topic for 17th Bttn, but a cousin's service in the sister Battalion helps place a context on the people of Manchester.

James' MIC has a 2nd Number 25763.  Do you know what this may refer to?

http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/james-frederick-bell-6957-16th-battalion-manchester-regiment/

Thanks again.

T
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Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 08:41:11 PM »
I just found James' SWB Roll.  It helpfully records his 2nd Service No. in 69th Training Reserve Battalion.  It also shows enlistment on 3/9/14 with discharge (wounds) on 25/4/17.  It's possible he may have served with the 25th before it was redesignated; all depending how long it took to recover from his wounds.

The SWB rolls prove more informative than most other records.

T
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Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 11:26:21 AM »
his injuries were to serious for him to serve with any other battalion,the timeline between him being wounded and discharged,was about nine months,it would have taken that long to get over his injuries and convalescence,then he would have gone before a medical board,the posting to the 25th batt[69th TR]would have been just a paper posting,for pay and ration purposes

mack ;D

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 01:07:51 PM »
Mack & Tony,

Thanks for your thoughts.  My grandfather and his brother-in-law, Herbert Vernon were both wounded in 1916.  Herbert was discharged that November with no posting elsewhere, but Grandad (who had shrapnel in his foot) was not discharged until 14/3/18, having spent the interim time 'as a civilian'.  Albert Hurst of 17th also took over his old civilian job when he had recuperated, even though he wasn't discharged until Dec 1918.

It seems strange cousin James had worse wounds and was posted to the 69th.  If it were administrative, I'd have thought there would have been similar transfers for wounded men in 16th & 17th.

T
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Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 01:48:03 PM »
your grandfather and albert hurst were not civilians,they were still serving servicemen,returning a serviceman back to civvie employment,is classW reserve,this is for men who are not up to soldiering because of their wounds/illness,they are fit enough to do civvie work,eg war work etc,but they are still actually serving soldiers,many were returned to active service after completely recovering from their wounds/illness,during their period on classW,they are paid by the company/firm that they were employed with,herbert,william vernon was most likely paid by the depot till his discharge,you cant base one individuals circumstances on those of another,each soldier is assessed by a medical board,to determine if he may or may not be returned to military service in the future,theres also classP,this is for servicemen whos civvie occupation is more important than his military service[munitions etc]many of these are returned to active service when a substitute can be found to replace him

mack ;D

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 03:41:39 PM »
Great explanation.  Thanks
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Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 01:20:38 PM »
Hi All,
The Forum discussion about Cleethorpes and Nash's 'Diary' was a good advert for the book and my copy arrived yesterday.  I've struggled to put it down, finding it compelling to hear the everyday nature of extraordinary events in the 1st half of 1916.  Loads more to read and I thoroughly recommend the book to anyone else, particularly those interested in the Service Battalions.
I picked up Nash's description of the ration carriers at Maricourt pp45-46. He says "Wallace and Bell carried rations for my own Platoon."
The Book of Honour shows FJ Bell in XIII Pln and Nash was Pln Commander of XVI Pln.  I haven't found another Bell in D Coy. nor Wallace.

I think it reasonable to assume the only Bell in D Coy. had transferred to XVI Pln, but any input from the forum would be appreciated.

Thanks

T
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Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 11:54:38 PM »
its possible that nash misquoted wallaces name,he may have been referring to pte 7068 archie willis who was in the same platoon as bell.

mack ;D

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 07:52:49 AM »
Mack,
That would make sense especially if there had been no drafts of men into the 16th by May 1916. It's interesting to see examples of men shuffling around the Platoons. I knew this happened, but don't know how widespread.
Do you know what happened to Archie?
Thanks
Tim
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Offline mack

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 10:30:30 AM »
archie died on 24th may 1948 aged 59,he lived at 362 moorside rd,flixton at the time,he stated on his discharge that he had worked for smith+co for four years before the war,this was untrue,he worked for d.q henriques at Manchester stock exchange,the father of 2/Lt g.l.q henriques of the 16th manchesters.

the way nash worded it,sounds like bell+wallace[willis]didn't belong to his platoon,otherwise he would have written,"they carried rations up for THE platoon".

mack ;D
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 10:56:14 AM by mack »

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 04:27:49 PM »
Thanks Mack,
The assumption Bell and Willis were not in 16th Pln also makes sense with the mis-spelling as Wallace.  Nash would have spelt the names of his own Pln correctly.

T
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Offline Tim Bell

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2014, 12:50:16 PM »
Just been listening to Scout Sgt Bert Payne's IWM interview and found 2?Lt Henriques was 'his Lieutenant' indicating Henriques was the Scout Officer prior to Nash.
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timberman

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Re: James Frederick Bell 6957 & 25763
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2014, 02:09:42 PM »
 In Nash's book The Diary of an unprofessional
soldier on page 149 it says,

2/Lt Henriques Spent a few weeks in France
never saw the trenches and was invalided
home in Dec 1915.
Worth reading page 37.

Timberman