Author Topic: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters  (Read 1858 times)

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,103
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2019, 10:01:53 PM »
I would suggest that they were buried by captured men from 172 Tunneling Coy. There would have been no british units active in the area at that time. They were found in a German grave marked with just one cross upon which was written „Hier ruht Krause II ER 6/184“ - here lies Krause etc.

Charlie

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2019, 12:53:42 PM »
I would suggest that they were buried by captured men from 172 Tunneling Coy. There would have been no british units active in the area at that time. They were found in a German grave marked with just one cross upon which was written „Hier ruht Krause II ER 6/184“ - here lies Krause etc.

Charlie
that's great work Charlie,where on earth did you find it.

mack

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,103
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2019, 01:30:22 PM »
Mack,
Sorry, only Pte Swindale was found in the German grave, my mistake. The reference to the German cross is on the concentration record for Pte Swindale.

Pte Bean and Pte Grier were buried 3-400 yards away from Pte Swindale, which to me suggests that all three were probably not killed outright.

Charlie

« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 04:41:39 PM by charlie »

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,437
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2019, 04:50:10 PM »
Hi Charlie,
Sgt Hollingworth wrote to Sgt Brown's parents and stated "...a Shell came over which struck the parapet of the Trench. Bert was killed instantly along with three other men..."
Lt Goldsmith also wrote about finding the bodies "Your son Mr Brown, so far as I could see was killed by concussion of the shell, but the 3 others were badly knocked about."

I wonder if Sgt Brown was buried with Pte Grier and Bean and Pte Swindale may have been a casualty from another section of 90th TMB.  That would leave a final casualty in Sgt Brown's section who may have been unidentified or too "knocked about" for burial.

I need to look at those service records Mack found.

I'm getting this data from Stuart Brown's article on my Blog.  It's obviously centered on Uncle Bert and I may have a look at a wider article on 90th TMB, particularly due to my current work on Lt Goldsmith. https://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/afterwards/march-1918-the-german-spring-offensive-st-quentin/my-uncle-bert-sgt-8060-herbert-brown/

Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2019, 05:34:34 PM »
sgt brown had four men in his gun team,its thought that one was badly wounded and got away,maybe pte swindale was the wounded man who got away but didn't quite make it,there was another RSF soldier killed in that spot,but I don't have any evidence that he was in this gun crew,he was pte 203748 Arthur laing.

mack

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2019, 02:27:17 AM »
ive been digging around on CWGC and found another RSF pte 14886 james.t knox who also died in this vicinity.

there wasn't a lot of RSF killed on 21st/22nd march[appox 24]he and pte laing are listed as DIED,after reading the reports in tims blog,ime going to take a wild guess at what may have happened.

when goldsmith found sgt browns team,it was pte laing who was killed by the pressure of the shell,which left no marks on him,that explains why hes listed as DIED,and it was sgt brown and ptes grier+bean who had been badly knocked about,the badly wounded man who got away could have been pte swindale,but sadly he didn't quite make it

in his letters to sgt browns family,goldsmith made TOO much of a point about the condition of sgt browns body,I believe he was trying to spare them any more grief.

any RSFs who died in this locality must have belonged to sgt browns gun teams,pte knox probably died the same way as pte laing

its pure guesswork guys and without any proof,its just hot air on my part

mack

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2019, 11:44:18 AM »
one of captain hendries men who got away from the hill.

43669 William rostron 10 lime st clayton

mack

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 02:43:24 PM »
on the above map,is it possible to find map ref,X.28.B,[battle position]this looks a bit small to be a complete map ref,but I aint that clued up on maps

mack

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,103
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2019, 04:07:30 PM »
Mack,
The above is only a screen shot of part of the map, you can see the full map here http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A70733/datastream/JP2/macrepo%3A70733.jp2

I‘ve attached another screen shot and marked the relevant squares

Blue - X.12.a where Grier and Bean were buried.
Red - X.11.b where Swindale was buried
Black - X.28.b

Quite away from each other, each large (eg 22) square is 1000 yards x 1000 yards
Charlie
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 04:10:36 PM by charlie »

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2019, 06:01:42 PM »
thats great Charlie.
they sent two 6inch trench mortars to that position

two more 6inch mortars under 2/Lt augustus,william Humphreys and his ten men were sent to L,epine de dallon,he and his men were all reported missing on 21st march,he was eventually reported as a POW.

one 6inch mortar was in roupy covering the battle zone.

one 6inch mortar under Lt Vivian,herbert neser and his 10 men were in brown quarry.

Y/30 in the battle zone,registered two 6inch mortars on the battle zone.

X/30s HQ moved to roupy and registered three 6inch mortars on the battle zone

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2019, 06:06:27 PM »
Charlie.
was the battle zone where capt Hendrie and Lt evans were with their 4 mortars

mack

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,437
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2019, 06:31:47 PM »
Charlie.
was the battle zone where capt Hendrie and Lt evans were with their 4 mortars

mack
Hendrie & Evans were in the Forward Zone - near Manchester Hill
Bert Brown & Lt Goldsmith etc were in the Battle Zone to the rear with 2nd Beds - hence numerous 2nd Beds casualties in Chapelle.
Map in next post
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,437
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2019, 06:41:09 PM »
Mack,

I think the men in 21b were in RFA 30th Div TMB.

Reviewing Lt Goldsmith's letter of 10/11/1918 and Bert's records.

The map of the 90th TMB gun positions https://17thmanchesters.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/P1030668.1-1.jpg?w=1920 made me think Bert Brown was south of the railway in 28.d. 

The Brigade War Diary shows a postion north east for 2 TMs in 23.c and the other close to Bert's map in 21.d https://17thmanchesters.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/90th-brigade-positions-21st-march-1918.jpg.  Then again, these may be the locations of the heavy TMBs of 30th DIv?

I've thought that Bert was in the front position towards Savy, with responsibility for a 2nd gun close by.  This gun was knocked out with 2 men killed. It could explain why there were two locations for the 90th Bgd burials.

The 2nd pair of guns were then in the rear near Etrelliers 27.b under the Corporal and Lt Goldsmith when he was visiting Bert's forward position.

Goldsmith said he was in command of all 4 guns, so I assume Hilton was in reserve, or posted somewhere else (30th Div TMB?). Sgt Hollingsworth may have had duties across all 4 guns, possibly supply of ammunition.

I went to this location in July. It is flat open fields with no sign of events.  I'll update this post if we conclude more.

I'm off to Kew tomorrow, so may find more from Service Files.  I may also find the elusive 90th TMB War Diary.

(PS for Mack I'm also checking Joseph Cotterill's file to confirm he was still serving when he died)

Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,437
    • Grandad's Journey
90th TMB crews 21/3/1918
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2019, 07:01:27 PM »
50994 Pte Frederick Bean of 16th Bttn

KIA 21/3/1918. He was buried next to Sgt Payne and it is reasonably safe to assume he was one of the other 2 men killed in Sgt Brown's team att to 90th TMB.  Fred had served in Middx Regiment Pte G/19292.  He was 19/20 and Son of Charles Bean, of West St., Helpston, Peterborough. Now Chappelle B Cemetery. BWM & VM. No Star

I'll add other men when I find more details.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:29:36 PM by Tim Bell »
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,537
Re: Captain H A Hendrie, 19th Manchesters
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2019, 09:49:08 PM »
we need a map of the whole area tim,and when we ID which battery belonged to 90th brigade and which ones belonged to the 30th division,we can then add them to the map,it would be too big to post on the forum,a possible way would be to print off each section and stick them all together,making one big map,and then slowly add the info to it.
I wonder if they have such a map at kew ;)

mack