Author Topic: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn  (Read 15322 times)

Offline harribobs

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2007, 03:40:55 PM »
On my Over Peover topic across on the Great War Forum, I reported the unpleasant news that the Memorial had been vandalised a few weeks ago.  Some thieves crowbarred up and pinched some of the large york stone flags that make up the plinth.

well, it is a bit rough around there................ ::)
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Offline Wendi

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2007, 04:03:17 PM »
No excuse for vandalism, but it's nice that workmen are repairing it.  I hope they put a CCTV at the top and nab the blighters   >:(

Mark, I've sent you the census pages, let me know if you get them OK. 

With regard to the MIC I'm just looking for someplace  ::) within the military records that mentions even the initial of his middle name, then we'd know for sure you have the right chap  ;D

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha

MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2007, 07:36:28 PM »
No excuse for vandalism, but it's nice that workmen are repairing it.  I hope they put a CCTV at the top and nab the blighters   >:(

Mark, I've sent you the census pages, let me know if you get them OK. 

With regard to the MIC I'm just looking for someplace  ::) within the military records that mentions even the initial of his middle name, then we'd know for sure you have the right chap  ;D

Wendi  :)
Census pages arrived safe and well - many thanks: it even tells you the house numbers  :)  plus I now have some further siblings, which I hadn't turned up from my own sources.  This should make it a bit easier to trace living relatives when I get to that task!  :D

sphinx has also sent me images of William's medals and plaque.  The Plaque has just "William Street" and the reverse of the 14/15 Star has "Pte.W.Street".  He has not sent me a pic of the rim or either of the others, but I notice he has added his own display label which has "Private William Henry Street" and the label clearly pre-dates this Topic.  sphinx has either picked up "Henry" from the rim of one of the other two medals or from his own researches - either way that's good enough for me, and I think we can be pretty certain that this is "our" William Street that links back to Over Peover via the CWGC entry.
Cheers,
Mark






Offline Wendi

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2007, 08:09:39 PM »
either way that's good enough for me, and I think we can be pretty certain that this is "our" William Street that links back to Over Peover via the CWGC entry.

Sphinx knows I'm a stickler for the exact, as it could still be the wrong chap, what happened to the family of 3 you posted initially ~ are you completely confident they no longer exist?

I would be grateful if Sphinx would add his comments.

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha

Offline sphinx

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2007, 08:33:01 PM »
Wel here goes.

Firstly there is no mention of the middle initial/name of Henry on any medal or military document that I have.  His papers didn't survive.
When I got the group I did my usual research, papers, cencus, church, photos etc.

I found a William Henry Street, b. 1889 at Twemlow which is extremely local to Goostry and Over Peover on the 1891 and 1901 cencus.
The 1891 has him and his family at 16 Twemlow Green, Twemlow with the correct parents John (a Butler) and Agnes as shown on the CWGC entry.
The 1901 entry has him at 19 Jodrell Lane, Lower Withington which again is a village very near to all the others.  He is with his mother Agnes and family, minus his father John, who is at Tollbar House, Twemlow, Goostry as Butler.

As he is remembered on both the Over Peover and Goosetry memorials I believe that this is the correct William ( Henry) Street.

Always open to new ideas!!!!!!

regards

MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2007, 12:42:02 AM »
either way that's good enough for me, and I think we can be pretty certain that this is "our" William Street that links back to Over Peover via the CWGC entry.

Sphinx knows I'm a stickler for the exact, as it could still be the wrong chap, what happened to the family of 3 you posted initially ~ are you completely confident they no longer exist?

I would be grateful if Sphinx would add his comments.

Wendi  :)
Wendi,
You are of course absolutely right to be a stickler - assumption is the mother of disaster!  I'm just being lazy and I deserve a ticking off: good research is always well-corroborated!

sphinx's trail is actually exactly the one I followed, except sphinx has clearly seen the actual census entries where I have only been working off the free-to-view on-line indexes.  However this locality sits at the confusing junction of several Sub-Districts belonging to three separate Registration Districts.  Add in a large, loosely-related local clan like the Streets and you have a recipe for some real genealogical howlers - Wendi is right to insist we are rigorous here!

Anyway to begin at the beginning ...

CWGC has Pte William STREET 5048 13/Manchesters died 25 April 1917 aged 28, son of John & Agnes STREET of Mainwaring Arms, Over Peover.

SDGW adds that he was born in Goostrey and resided in Peover.

From this we can estimate his birth year as 1889 +/- 1 year.

A Births search on surname "Street" with forenames containing "William" in Cheshire with that birth-year range gives the following (the locations are the Registration Sub-Districts):
1888 William Henry STREET - Church Hulme
1889 Frederick William STREET - Runcorn
1890 John William STREET - Church Hulme
1890 William STREET - Sandbach
1890 William STREET - Stockport

There was a William Henry STREET born in 1891 in Alderley Sub-District (near to Peover & including Lower Withington), but he is outside the birth-year range.

Church Hulme is the old name for Holmes Chapel.  Holmes Chapel and Goostrey are adjacent townships about 1 mile apart.  The Registration Sub-District called 'Church Hulme' contains the following parishes: Blackden, Brereton cum Smethwick, Church Hulme, Cotton, Cranage, Davenport, Goostrey cum Barnshaw (1867-1937), Kermincham, Leese, Swettenham, Twemlow.

From this we are probably safe to infer Pte Street is either William Henry Street b.1888, or John William Street b.1889 since Goostrey is in the 'Church Hulme' sub-district.

An 1891 Census search in Sub-District "Church Hulme" on Surname "Street", forenames "John", "Agnes" OR "William" brings back:
John STREET;33yrs
Agnes STREET; 32yrs
William STREET; 3yrs
there was no John William STREET or John STREET in the age range 2-5yrs.

NB I am only using the indexes here on www.1901censusonline.com and these are specific hits on only those search terms - this is not returning a Household.  I think I have misled Wendi here into thinking there was a family of three.  My search would not find any other Surname "Street" with different forenames, and 1901censusonline has no free-to-use facility to view the data by Household  and FreeCEN has hardly started transcribing the 1891 data for Cheshire :(  Even worse, 1901censusonline has the forename field as mandatory, so you cannot get all the Street surnames without knowing the forenames as well :(

In other words, using this method I would not find any of William's siblings unless I already knew their names.  Also my method does not even confirm John, Agnes and William are actually in the same Household.

On the other hand, it looks like sphinx has had sight of the actual census return as he knows they're all in a single household in Twemlow Green probably with some children in addition to William.  He also knows that father John is a Butler.  Twemlow is in the 'Church Hulme' Registration Sub-District, so these will be the same Streets that I found.

BTW I don't think the household is No 16, Twemlow Green.  I think it is just the 16th household in the Schedule for the hamlet - the number is a sequence number within the census, not a number in the house address.

It would be good to get this 1891 data confirmed by someone with access to the full census returns before we go further, as the next step takes us onto the 1901 Census and moves to Lower Withington, home of several sets of Streets, who all seem to be loosely connected with brick selling and bricklaying.  Lower Withington is in the Alderley Registration Sub-district and we already know there was another William Henry STREET of very nearly the same age in that Sub-district in 1891, so I think we need to move very carefully  :-\


Wendi/sphinx can you confirm the 1891 data on ancestry.co.uk?
Cheers,
Mark




« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 12:50:58 AM by MBrockway »

Offline Wendi

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2007, 09:15:42 AM »
Mornin' All  ;D

Thank you Sphinx,

I think it's turning out that you do have the right chap, and I appreciate your input.  BTW Mark is right, those are not house numbers, they are the Schedule of Census numbers.

Mark,

Your detailed post is far from lazy :o I've sent you the 1891 Census page, and yes you are right I've been concerned that the names you found were another family as William Street aged 3....so, understanding you didn't have access to the actual census pages I have tried to follow you search, hoping to unearth William Street aged 3 in Ancestry

A search in All Census Records of 1901Censusonline for William H Street born 1884 to 1890 returns NO matches.

Search 1891 Census for William Street "Hulme" 1884 to 1890 3 matches
William Street aged 1 Hulme, Chorlton
William Street aged 2 Chorlton, Hulme
William Street aged 3 Congleton, Church Hulme

1901 Census for the same search as above only one result
William Street aged 11 South Manchester

The districts mentioned through out are residence (not birth place)

It's not 'till you do the same search for "Wm" Street that our boy appears  ::)

OK on Ancestry 1891 Census search for William Street Residence Cheshire birth 1887 +/- 2years produces only one result "our chap" aged 2

The same birth search produces only 2 results and the other chap is Frederick William Street whose birth is registered in Runcorn.  Extend that search for 5 years +/- the nearest ones are 1883 William Henry Street BUT in Stockport or 1891 in MacClesfield, so in conclusion:

If I've followed your search correctly, I can't find the William Street aged 3 on Ancestry, and would have to go with the findings that Sphinx concluded in the light of no other info.

Wendi  :)








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MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2007, 05:09:26 PM »
Wendi,
Thanks for the Census image from 1891 - received A OK!

Looking through my post, I see I neglected to state that the 'Church Hulme' Sub-district is within 'Congleton' District.

Is there any chance you could do Ancestry 1891 and 1901 Census look ups for the William Henry STREET in the 1891 'Alderley' Sub-district Birth Register?

'Alderley' Sub-district was in 'Macclesfield' District and contained the following parishes/townships:
Alderley Edge, Birtles, Capesthorne, Chelford, Chorley, Great Warford, Lower Withington, Nether Alderley, Old Withington, Over Alderley, Snelson.

I know he's outside our estimated birth-year range, but if we can fix him in a household in Lower Withington (or somewhere else in 'Alderley' Sub-district) in 1891, then we can separate this younger William Henry STREET from our older Pte William Henry STREET who has moved to Lower Withington by the time of the 1901 Census.  Do you see what I mean?

Of course, he's bound to have been born in 1891 after the Census was taken  ::)

Lower Withington and Over Peover seem to be the 'Street' Clan heartland by the way - there are loads of them there!  A lot of them seem connected with bricklaying and brickselling too.

Many thanks for all the help - invaluable!

Cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 05:17:36 PM by MBrockway »

Offline Wendi

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2007, 06:36:40 PM »
Hi Mark !

OK he was born before the 1891 Census was taken as his birth is registered in the 1st Qtr and the Census was taken on the night of April 5/6th however a quick search does not reveal him, but I'm not that sure of the area  :-\  ::)

So, a search of 1901 census for "William Street" born Cheshire +/- 1 year of 1891 produces only one chap born and living in Bradwall, Reg Dist. Congleton, Sub-reg. Sandbach.  I know the Census can not always be trusted but his birthplace has been written in, it's not a "ditto"

Also I quite like the fact that the date of death of William on CWGC exactly matches "our" William's age.

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha

MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2007, 07:51:31 PM »
Hi Wendi,
Bradwall Civil Parish straddles the M6 just N of Sandbach.  It is about 2 miles S of Holmes Chapel, about 3.5 miles from Twemlow, and about 5 miles from Lower Withington ... uncomfortably close!   :-[


Can I be really cheeky & ask for another 1901 Census look-up please ?? :)

Dragon on the GWF site has been helping me with trying to find some of the Over Peover men using Kelly's Directories.

She has found John STREET (Pte William STREET's father) at the Mainwaring Arms in Over Peover in Kelly's Directory for 1914.  You'll spot that this matches perfectly with CWGC.

Kelly's for 1902 however, has James DALE as the publican.  It would be very good corroboration if James DALE was also there in the 1901 Census.

We might get some names for the staff working there too.

The pub is in Stocks Lane, Over Peover and is in the 'Knutsford' Registration Sub-district which, from 1898, was in 'Bucklow' District.  Up to 1898, it was a Sub-district in 'Altrincham' District.

It would also help confirm the pub's name: it is now known as the Whipping Stocks Inn and is just opposite the Barclay's Bank Radbroke Hall site if you know the A50.  However it was the Mainwaring Arms in the turn of the century Kelly's Directories and Ordnance Survey maps.  Strangely though, in the Latter Day Saints version of the 1881 Census, it is back as the Whipping Stocks Inn - very curious!

It's a difficult call to say which is the older name as the pub is in Stocks Lane, but the family at Peover Hall are the Mainwarings.


Many thanks!
Cheers,
Mark





MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2007, 08:37:13 PM »
Quarter to September 1885 in the District of Ormskirk, Lancashire are the marriages of

George Barton
Agnes Jane Beeston
John Street
Sarah Ann Wootton

The only sure way of finding out who married whom is to obtain a certificate  ???
Wendi  :)
Wendi,
Have you come across lancashirebmd?  Excellent site - it gives full details of marriage register entries .... unfortunately, they haven't started transcribing the Ormskirk register yet!   :'(

As you say, it's obtain the certificate, or wait for the transcribers!
Cheers,
Mark



MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 08:44:51 PM »
Mark,
... I have tried to follow you search, hoping to unearth William Street aged 3 in Ancestry

Wendi  :)
Wendi,
1901Censusonline was my source for William Street aged 3 ... and also for John STREET aged 33

As we know from the Census Forms, John was in fact 32yrs and William was 2yrs.

My guess is these are both transcription errors when they built the indices.  So much of the rest is a good match.
Cheers,
Mark



Offline Wendi

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2007, 09:16:12 PM »
John STREET; 42yrs; born Kermincham [very near to Twemlow]; butler/domestic

I'm pretty sure this is Daddy, he's listed as married, but there is no house name - it's in Twemlow, Goostrey St Luke.  The Head is Egerton Leigh married to Violet C Leigh, he's a 57 year old "Local J. P"  - could Dragon do a look-up for you, it could give you the house name ???

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha

MBrockway

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2007, 09:20:14 PM »

A Births search on surname "Street" with forenames containing "William" in Cheshire with that birth-year range gives the following (the locations are the Registration Sub-Districts):
1888 William Henry STREET - Church Hulme
1889 Frederick William STREET - Runcorn
1890 John William STREET - Church Hulme
1890 William STREET - Sandbach
1890 William STREET - Stockport

From this we are probably safe to infer Pte Street is either William Henry Street b.1888, or John William Street b.1890 since Goostrey is in the 'Church Hulme' sub-district [... CWGC has Pte Street's birth parish as Goostrey].
[Updated after posting as Wendi spotted I'd made a howler with the birth year  :-[ ]
As you all know, we've not yet been able to rule out Pte Street actually being the John William STREET b.1890 above, despite William being this chap's middle- rather than his fore-name.

My own grandfather's Birth Names were "William John Brockway", but he was always known as "John" (well, in fact, "Jack"), so it's not unknown.

Wendi was unable to find a John William STREET aged approx 2-4yrs in the 1891 Census and that got me thinking.

Anyhow I did another Birth Register search and found that this John William STREET b.1890 was born in the 4th Quarter of 1890.

Next I did a Death Register search for Surname "Street" in Congleton District and in the 1890 Qtr 4 register I found John William STREET, 0 years.

So sadly it looks like John William STREET b.1890 lived only a matter of days :(  and therefore definitely could not be our Pte Street.

Cheers,
Mark



« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 10:12:17 PM by MBrockway »

Offline Wendi

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Re: Over Peover, Cheshire village War Meml - Pte William STREET, 5048, 13th Btn
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2007, 09:30:40 PM »
ooooH Mark,

Please tell me you mean the one born 1890  :o

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha