Author Topic: Introduction and queries about Manchester men  (Read 11293 times)

Offline hesadevil

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Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« on: May 04, 2010, 11:30:24 AM »
Hi

My name is Pat. I have been researching my family history for decades and have, recently, had success tracing six great uncles who served in WW1.

My first query is about my great uncle Thomas Harding (born 1896, West Gorton) Family stories say he was killed in action in WW1 but I have had no success tracing any mention of him on any site I've visited. Would he have been mentioned in a local newspaper? Unfortunately, I have no idea which Regiment he served with or when (if) he was killed.

My second query is about my great uncle James Alfred Ryder (born 1886, Ancoats). I think I have found him on Wargraves





but how can I be sure that this is my uncle? He is living with his mother, Sarah Ann (widow), sister Gertrude and brother Thomas on the 1901 census. I have found a James Alfred living with wife Julia and children in 1911. There is a brother, John (18) living with them, but no Thomas. Sister Gertrude (my grandmother) was married and living not far away with her in-laws which would suggest that mother was dead (I can find no trace of Thomas or Sarah Ann on the 1911 census). I have ordered a marriage certificate for James Alfred and Julia which I am hoping will confirm that this is my great uncle. If it is, where would I find more details about his service? I can find nothing in the Service/Pension records.

I have had more success with my father's uncle William Mooney, who was with the 13th Manchesters - 9409. His papers tell me he was wounded on October 10th 1918. Could anyone tell me where the 13th Manchesters were in October 1918.

I am also looking for information on my great uncle George Elphick, who was with the Liverpool Regiment - 25995, and was wounded in 1916 at the first Somme Offensive. Could anyone tell me where I might find any? I have his medal card and a citation in the Manchester Roll of Honour book but can find nothing more.

Thank you in advance for any help. I had always wondered why it was that there was only 1 family member (my mother's uncle Thomas Harding) who had served in WW1. Now, thanks to the internet, I have found six great uncles.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 11:56:07 AM by kingo »

Offline kingo

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 12:03:17 PM »
Hi pat, and welcome to the forum.Firstly we have had to remove the Medal card image from the post as displaying it breaches Ancestry' s terms and conditions but the medal card does not relate to the War graves image. The James Ryder on the medal card was a pre-war territorial of the 9th Battalion who was mobilised at the outbreak of war and went to Gallipoli with the 9th Battalion on the 19th May 1915. He was probably wounded, returned to the UK and was discharged as unfit on the 8th October 1916. He survived the war-whereas James Alfred Ryder was killed.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Offline Wendi

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 01:21:53 PM »
Hi Pat and Welcome to our Forum !

The MIC for Private James A Ryder number 303395 is available on Ancestry for you to view.  He was entitled to the British and Victory Medals, but apart from that is says very little.

I an inclined to agree with you that the marriage certificate will give you the information you require.

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha

Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 02:17:20 PM »
Hi pat, and welcome to the forum.Firstly we have had to remove the Medal card image from the post as displaying it breaches Ancestry' s terms and conditions

Sorry about that. I'll be more careful in future.

Quote
but the medal card does not relate to the War graves image. The James Ryder on the medal card was a pre-war territorial of the 9th Battalion who was mobilised at the outbreak of war and went to Gallipoli with the 9th Battalion on the 19th May 1915. He was probably wounded, returned to the UK and was discharged as unfit on the 8th October 1916. He survived the war-whereas James Alfred Ryder was killed.

I've just checked my records and will delete this one. I have James Alfred's medal card, with the correct Reg. Number, in the same family research folder.

Thank you for the welcome. I hope someone else will be able to help find more details. Perhaps the local newspapers at the time? I'm in the SE of England and can't get to the Manchester archives. Colindale is also a bit of a treck but might be worth it if the marriage certificate confirms I have found my great uncle.

Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 02:20:08 PM »
Hi Pat and Welcome to our Forum !

The MIC for Private James A Ryder number 303395 is available on Ancestry for you to view.  ......

I an inclined to agree with you that the marriage certificate will give you the information you require.

Wendi  :)

Thanks Wendi - I have that record on file. Fingers crossed that the marriage certificate confirms my belief that this is my great uncle. We have a narrowboat in St Quentin and will be able to visit the memorial at Pozieres if this is the case.

Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 09:54:40 AM »
Hi everyone. The marriage certificate for my great uncle arrived this morning and confirms it IS my uncle. He gave his name as Alfred, which is what he was listed as in the 1891 census. The wargraves memorial lists him as James Alfred which is what he was listed as by his mother in 1901. On the 1904 marriage certificate, his age is given as 21. He and his bride Julia were residents in different flats in The Dwellings in Anocoats. Everything points to this man being James Alfred who died at Manchester Hill in March 1918, even though there are minor discrepencies such as the use of first and middle names and his occupation in 1901 and 1904 being Labourer in the Glass works and in 1911 as a railway porter.

Then there is the mystery of the brother, John, listed on the 1911 census, aged 18 but missing from the 1901 census (although I have found a John of the right age in the Skipton Poor Law School. I have found a John Ryder, born Ancoats, who was killed at Gallipoli in 1915 but with no details as to age or next of kin, can't be sure this is the John of the 1911 census. His regiment is given as The Border.

Back to James Alfred - is there anywhere I could find details of his MM citation? I've tried the London Gazette but really don't understand how to search it and have come up with nothing. His medal card doesn't mention the MM and his rank is given as Private. On the Pozieres memorial, he is a Lance Corporal. Is it possible that he was awarded the MM posthumously?

Thanks for all your help so far. Fingers crossed someone can help again.

Pat - Researching Mooney, Elphick, Harding, and Ryder

Offline kingo

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 10:26:38 AM »
Hi Pat. Generally speaking, Citations for the Military Medal were never recorded in the London Gazette-and i know what you mean about it being difficult to navigate the Gazette site-i had a look for any mention of his name-but drew a blank-although it will be there somewhere. The only place it could be recorded is in the War Diarys of the 2/6th Battalion. Sometimes the action for which the award of the Military Medal was recommended is found amongst them-but not always. The War Diarys are stored at the National Archives and can be viewed.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 10:37:27 AM »
Hi Pat. Generally speaking, Citations for the Military Medal were never recorded in the London Gazette-and i know what you mean about it being difficult to navigate the Gazette site-i had a look for any mention of his name-but drew a blank-although it will be there somewhere. The only place it could be recorded is in the War Diarys of the 2/6th Battalion. Sometimes the action for which the award of the Military Medal was recommended is found amongst them-but not always. The War Diarys are stored at the National Archives and can be viewed.

Thank you for this. I really am keen to try and track the citation. I never knew I had an ancestor who had been killed in WW! let alone been awarded a gallantry medal. It's important that he is not forgotten.

Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 06:12:40 PM »
Hi Pat. Generally speaking, Citations for the Military Medal were never recorded in the London Gazette-and i know what you mean about it being difficult to navigate the Gazette site-i had a look for any mention of his name-but drew a blank-although it will be there somewhere. The only place it could be recorded is in the War Diarys of the 2/6th Battalion. Sometimes the action for which the award of the Military Medal was recommended is found amongst them-but not always. The War Diarys are stored at the National Archives and can be viewed.

I've checked online for the 2/6 battalion war diaries and discovered that they are kept at Tameside Local Studies and Archives Centre

Reference: War Diary  MR4/1/3/11  1915-1918

Bundle

Contents:
Photocopy of War Diary 2nd/6th Battalion, the Manchester Regiment. 15 September 1915 - 1 March 1916; 3 March 1917 - 31 July 1917; and 1 September 1917 - 31 July 1918.

How on earth do I get to view them? There was a possibility of visiting the National Archive at Kew from where I live in North Herts, but not Thameside.

Pat

Offline Robert Bonner

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 06:50:34 PM »
Pat.
I cannot promise when but I will have a look at the archives in Tameside to see if there is anything in the 2/6th diaries of interest to you.
Robert
Robert

Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 06:53:19 PM »
Pat.
I cannot promise when but I will have a look at the archives in Tameside to see if there is anything in the 2/6th diaries of interest to you.
Robert

Oh Bless you Robert. I'm going to France, where we keep our narrowboat in St Quentin, later this month and won't be back until late July so there's absolutely no rush. I'll definitely visit the Poiziere's memorial sometime this year.

Pat

Fritz Bayer

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 07:25:39 PM »

I've checked online for the 2/6 battalion war diaries and discovered that they are kept at Tameside Local Studies and Archives Centre

They're also at Kew (diaries were kept in (at least) triplicate)...

Dave

Offline mack

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 09:35:43 PM »
Hi everyone. The marriage certificate for my great uncle arrived this morning and confirms it IS my uncle. He gave his name as Alfred, which is what he was listed as in the 1891 census. The wargraves memorial lists him as James Alfred which is what he was listed as by his mother in 1901. On the 1904 marriage certificate, his age is given as 21. He and his bride Julia were residents in different flats in The Dwellings in Anocoats. Everything points to this man being James Alfred who died at Manchester Hill in March 1918, even though there are minor discrepencies such as the use of first and middle names and his occupation in 1901 and 1904 being Labourer in the Glass works and in 1911 as a railway porter.

Then there is the mystery of the brother, John, listed on the 1911 census, aged 18 but missing from the 1901 census (although I have found a John of the right age in the Skipton Poor Law School. I have found a John Ryder, born Ancoats, who was killed at Gallipoli in 1915 but with no details as to age or next of kin, can't be sure this is the John of the 1911 census. His regiment is given as The Border.

Back to James Alfred - is there anywhere I could find details of his MM citation? I've tried the London Gazette but really don't understand how to search it and have come up with nothing. His medal card doesn't mention the MM and his rank is given as Private. On the Pozieres memorial, he is a Lance Corporal. Is it possible that he was awarded the MM posthumously?

Thanks for all your help so far. Fingers crossed someone can help again.

Pat - Researching Mooney, Elphick, Harding, and Ryder
hiya pat.
james,alfreds MM was won with the 2/8th manchesters,it was gazetted on 14th january 1918,the 2/6th manchesters were not at manchester hill when he was killed.

mack ;D



Offline hesadevil

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 12:25:48 AM »
hiya pat.
james,alfreds MM was won with the 2/8th manchesters,it was gazetted on 14th january 1918,

mack ;D


Hi Mack

Thank you for finding this.

Do you have the reference for the entry in the gazette? Is it in the London Gazette? How come he was with the 2/8th Manchesters?

Quote
the 2/6th manchesters were not at manchester hill when he was killed.
I've been tracking the 2/6th Manchesters all day and have just discovered they were at Carpeza Cops on 21st March.

Pat


Offline mack

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Re: Introduction and queries about Manchester men
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 01:17:40 AM »
i have the military medal roll for the manchesters pat,james joined the 2/8th manchesters,his service number is one that was issued to the 2/8th,he was a private when he won his MM,he must have transferred to the 2/6th battalion shortly after he won it

mack ;D