Author Topic: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.  (Read 4957 times)

Offline Readability5

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276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« on: December 27, 2007, 12:55:04 PM »

I wonder if anybody could point me in the right direction to research my Great Grandfather, who died on 23rd March 1918 and is buried in Boulogne Eastern Cemetery. 

His death certificate records him as a Corporal and lists his cause of death as 'died of disease'.  SJ Wilson's book on the 7th Manchesters lists him as 'died' (but spells his name Haselwood).

The GWGC site lists him as a Private.

On the day he died the Battalion was moving from Lillers to Ayette (in the opposite direction from Boulogne) and there aren't considerable numbers of deaths from disease at that time which might rule out the 'flu epidemic.

Thanks
Andy

Offline harribobs

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 06:53:14 PM »
hi Andy

welcome to the group, we're a tad slow at the moment  ;)

let's start with the basics

here's tom's 'soldiers died' entry


“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

Offline Readability5

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 07:33:32 PM »

Thanks Harribobs

The family were from the Fallowfield district so it figures that he enlisted in the 1/7th at Burlington Street, which is nearby.  It also explains my enduring fascination with Man City!

As he was in the 1/7th I assume he enlisted early on before they reached full battalion strength and I know from Wilsons excellent book on the 7th Manchesters that they were in Gallipoli in 1914/1915, yet Tom's wife had a daughter in November 1915.  Could he have enlisted as late as 1915 and still be in the 1/7th, rather than a 2/? or service regiment, or were the leave arrangements generous enough to ship him back every couple of months?

Wilson may of course got the 'died' classification from the soldier died database but Tom's death certificate specifies 'died from disease'.  Are there any standard definitions you know of or are the 2 interchangeable?  I'm also fascinated as to why his death certificate lists his rank as Corporal - could this just be a mistake?

I try to get back to Eastlands once a year.  This year I'll add an extra day to visit the museum and the Whitworth Park memorial.  Is there anywhere else I should think about visiting?

Sorry it's just a barrage of questions, and I appreciate that they're more anomalies than anything else, but any light you can shed on it would be appreciated.

Thanks
Andy

Offline harribobs

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 11:35:30 PM »
Thanks Harribobs
  It also explains my enduring fascination with Man City!Andy

 ;D now you can't blame your GGF for your problems!!  ;D

276587 is a correct number for the 7th battalion, but that number was only officially issued in march 1917, have you downloaded his medal index card?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=2996759&queryType=1&resultcount=1

the 1/7th suffered casualties all through the war and although the 2/7th did provide replacements, after the 2/7th went into action, replacement soldiers did go directly into the battalion

died, generally would mean died from disease and as you thought about the flu epidemic, this would be my  first thought at this time

chris
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

Offline mack

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2007, 12:04:34 AM »

Thanks Harribobs

The family were from the Fallowfield district so it figures that he enlisted in the 1/7th at Burlington Street, which is nearby.  It also explains my enduring fascination with Man City!

As he was in the 1/7th I assume he enlisted early on before they reached full battalion strength and I know from Wilsons excellent book on the 7th Manchesters that they were in Gallipoli in 1914/1915, yet Tom's wife had a daughter in November 1915.  Could he have enlisted as late as 1915 and still be in the 1/7th, rather than a 2/? or service regiment, or were the leave arrangements generous enough to ship him back every couple of months?

Wilson may of course got the 'died' classification from the soldier died database but Tom's death certificate specifies 'died from disease'.  Are there any standard definitions you know of or are the 2 interchangeable?  I'm also fascinated as to why his death certificate lists his rank as Corporal - could this just be a mistake?

I try to get back to Eastlands once a year.  This year I'll add an extra day to visit the museum and the Whitworth Park memorial.  Is there anywhere else I should think about visiting?

Sorry it's just a barrage of questions, and I appreciate that they're more anomalies than anything else, but any light you can shed on it would be appreciated.

Thanks
Andy
the DIED reference usually covered those who met their deaths by anything other than enemy action,some examples that i found.
ARE
drowned
accidentally killed
premature explosion of a rifle grenade
shot by accident
disease
sickness
ill health.

welcome to the forum andy

Offline Readability5

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2007, 09:39:55 AM »

Thanks Mack and Chris.

Family legend is that he served throughout the war only to fall in the last few months.  But I suppose joining up in 1915 still qualifies as early.

I have got a copy of his medal card.  It lists him as a Private with the regiment number Chris identified as issued in March 1917.  It gives reference numbers for the Victory and British medal.  There's nothing against the Star.  Weren't the 3 awarded together, or did you have to survive to the end to get the third?

I'm even more intrigued now!  Do you know where his personal record may be kept (or are they likely to be in the 'burnt' records)?  Hopefully that will answer where/when he enlisted and where he served.  Unfortunately none of the paraphernalia which may have been returned to the family seems to have survived.

Thanks
Andy



sitush

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2007, 11:06:57 AM »
1914-15 Star would be awarded even if a serviceman did not survive the war, provided he fulfilled the service date criteria for issue. I believe that officers had to apply for it, but ORs got it automatically - and this seems to be confirmed by http://www.sole.org.uk/ww1army.htm

The evidence in your GGF's case is tending to favour the family legend being just that, although you could stretch things by, for example, contemplating the possibility that the daughter born in November was not fathered by him. That would open up a right old can of worms  ::) but still leave the issue of service number in question.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 11:11:09 AM by sitush »

Offline themonsstar

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2007, 11:07:34 AM »
Hi Andy
And welcome to the site.

Can you give us the codes & pages numbers from the medal index card.

Offline Readability5

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2007, 11:24:43 AM »
Monsstar

Roll = 4/1/104 B 46 (The B is not in line with the rest and may be a beta sign)
Page = 9152

Both are on the Victory medal line. "do" appears on the British medal line immediately below.  The Star line below that is blank.

I've just worked out how to attach a document so you can see for yourself!

Thanks
Andy

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 11:57:18 AM »
Thanks Sitush.  Looks like he wasn't there from the start then.

Offline themonsstar

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Re: 276587. Thomas HESELWOOD. 1/7th Battalion.
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 02:37:11 PM »
The medal roll info is:


276587 Pte Thomas Heselwood 1/7th Battalion Manch Regt.


British War Medal & Victory Medal issue 21st Oct 1921


He must have moved overseas after 1st Jan 1916 to only get the BWM & VM. If he had moved overseas before 31st Dec 1915 he would have been award the 1915 Star.


He could have still joined up any time from Aug 1914, and work in the UK until he moved overseas