Author Topic: Flags at Catherdral  (Read 4210 times)

Offline mhargreaves

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Flags at Catherdral
« on: November 30, 2009, 07:36:06 PM »
Had a look at the colours at the cathedral in manchester today. Great to see that history on display: flags that  were carried in the 1800's.etc

I read in the battalion history (21st) that there was a parade on ist july 1920 after which they were deposited at the cathedral.

 I was looking for the pals battalion flags. Did i fail to see them?  i saw some but  Were some destroyed in the bombing of 2ww? is there a list at cathedral of what they hold? held?

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Matthew

 
Matthew Hargreaves
My great grandfather RSM John Hargreaves M.C. served with the 22nd Battalion Manchester Regiment

Offline mack

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Re: Flags at Catherdral
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 08:05:35 PM »
hiya matt.
the pals didnt have their own colors,their honours and those of all the manchester battalions are included on the regimental colors in the cathedral

robert+george are more knowledgable on this.

mack ;D

Offline mhargreaves

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Re: Flags at Catherdral
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 11:07:59 PM »
Thanks.

I was having difficulty reading the flags as it was getting dark!

I was thinking they would be there as  in the 21st battalion history pg 38 " on 1st of july 1920 the colours of the 21st, along with the other Manchester Pals battalions, were... at noon the colours were paraded in Albert square, Manchester, afterwards being carried to the Cathedral..,where they were delivered into the keeping of the Deanand the Chapter to be preserved with those of the other city battalions."

But reading it again does not say individual colours for each battalion.
Matthew Hargreaves
My great grandfather RSM John Hargreaves M.C. served with the 22nd Battalion Manchester Regiment

Offline harribobs

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Re: Flags at Catherdral
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 09:44:44 AM »

and i do believe that there's a plaque on the wall on the right just before the entrance to the chapel that says the service battalions colours were laid up here
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Offline george.theshed197

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Re: Flags at Catherdral
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 04:40:09 PM »
I winced at the 'Flags' in the heading, but then I am an ex-Regular - I can recall an incident at Bourlon Barracks Catterick some years ago on an Open Day for the King's Regiment and we were watching the parade on the square, suddenly one of the escorting Sgts began to explain to those around him 'The Flags are being taken to that tent.....' My dear wife bless her, just said 'Don't you mean the Colours..' Poor Sgt, didn't know where to put himself, However.
As far as I can remember and Robert will correct me if I am wrong - only the Regular Battalions actually carried Colours and when they were due for replacement the old ones were 'Laid Up' in the Regimental Chapel; again as they wore further away they were reinforced with a fine textile mesh until finally the remnants would have been burnt and the ashes scattered in the Cathedral grounds. The details of those still hung there are shown on Brass Plaques beneath each of them, the latest to be 'Laid up ' are the two just on the outside of the entrance to the Chapel against the right hand pillar, the upper one being the New Colours presented at Warley Barracks on the Amalgamation 1958 and the lower on their replacement presented at Hounslow Barracks in the 1990's and now in turn replaced by the First Colours of the Duke of Lancaster's Regiment.
I cannot for the life of me remember the other ones that are within the chapel and yet at one time would have rattled them off, dates, chapter and verse at the drop of a hat.

There was a Regimental Christmas Card some years ago using the last photograph of the Silver Drums and Colours taken in the Chapel, I have a copy somewhere, will dig it out and post it as and when.

Regards,
George.

Offline themonsstar

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Re: Flags at Catherdral
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 06:16:03 PM »
Hi George

Here is a copy of a photo from 1936/7 I have of the Silver Drums and Colours of the 1st Battlion The Manchester Regt.

The Colours embody the spirit of the Regiment. They symbolise service to King/Queen and Country and depict the principal honours and distinctions earned by our predecessors. The Colours are consecrated before they are handed over to the safe keeping of the Regiment and for that reason they must always be treated with the greatest respect and accorded the highest honour.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 06:30:14 PM by themonsstar »

Offline mhargreaves

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Re: Flags at Cathedral
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 09:49:15 PM »
My knowledge of Colours is flagging.

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to have another look at plaques. The 21st history does say they and the other "Manchester Pals battalions" had colours.

Not includingthe older Colours I was expecting Colours 1-7. Not quite as simple as that. i was not sure even with the descriptions  below each flag.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 09:55:58 PM by mhargreaves »
Matthew Hargreaves
My great grandfather RSM John Hargreaves M.C. served with the 22nd Battalion Manchester Regiment

Offline Robert Bonner

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Re: Flags at Catherdral
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2009, 08:04:08 PM »
Ugh!  I groaned as well as George when I saw the subject heading. 
But being of a charitable nature (today only) I fully accept that it is very easy to use the dreaded word flag when talking about the Colours of an infantry or Guards Regiment.  All the Colours presently in the Regimental Chapel were carried by either regular or territorial battalions.  Other Colours carried by the Regiment are laid up in St Michael and All Angels Parish Church in Ashton-under-Lyne, Hurst Parish Church, Ashton-under-Lyne and Oldham Parish Church. There are 5th Battalion Colours in Wigan Parish Church but the last time I was there the Colours were not hanging, due to interior work in the church. Other ancient Colours are framed in the Regimental Museum.

The original question concerned the Colours of the Pals Battalions.  In accordance with instructions from King George V, each Service battalion that had served abroad was presented with a silk King's Colour. No Regimental Colours were ever issued to these battalions. On 1st July 1920 the Colours of the 16th to 22nd Manchester Battalions were consecrated at the Regimental Depot and handed over by Major General Shoubridge to the junior officers of the receiving battalions.

 Unfortunately it was a wet day and the ceremony took place in the Gymnasium.  Later, at midday, the Colours were paraded in Albert Square, Manchester and were then marched to the cathedral where they were delivered into the keeping of the Dean and Chapter.  A similar ceremony took place on 31st January 1921 for the King's Colours of the 23rd Battalion, 1st Garrison Battalion and the 51st/53rd Battalions.

Through the poor quality of the original material and the acid effect of Manchester smog the fabric of these Colours disintegrated over the years and about twenty years ago the cathedral architect arranged for them to be revererently burned. As George  indicated the ashes were then strewn on the cathedral grounds. The one exception is that of the Colour of the 24th Battalion which was laid up in Oldham Town Hall then later transferred to the Parish Church.  Through the good offices of the Oldham Liaison of Ex-Service Organisations this Colour has recently been refurbished, and now continues its place in the Oldham Parish Church. Much pride and a great local achievement.
Robert

Offline mhargreaves

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Re: Flags at Cathedral
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 10:26:08 PM »
Apologies for causing the groaning, sighing and general dismay: that wasn't the intention of the question.

Thanks for that answer is has cleared up my query.

Plus i have learnt my flags/Colours lesson.

( I was reading on line the Guardian archive for 2nd july 1920 and there is a photo of the parade in Albert Square but all i could make out was umbrellas. I don't know where these cliches about Mancunian weather began.)
Matthew Hargreaves
My great grandfather RSM John Hargreaves M.C. served with the 22nd Battalion Manchester Regiment