Author Topic: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st  (Read 10760 times)

Offline Wendi

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2009, 10:15:01 AM »
Harribobs !

Is there any truth to the rumour that the blues came from the local tram depot?  Uniforms for the Tram Conductors ?

Wendi  :)
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Offline kingo

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2009, 11:43:27 AM »
I remember reading somewhere (probably Stedmans book) that the Men were teased about their uniforms. They were nicknamed "The Tram guards" and they didn't like it. They couldn't wait to get rid of them. Whether the uniforms came from the Tramways or not, i have never been able to get a definitive answer !.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2009, 12:25:54 PM »
Harribobs !

Is there any truth to the rumour that the blues came from the local tram depot?  Uniforms for the Tram Conductors ?

Wendi  :)

my understanding is that the uniforms were made up from blue material that was similar to the Tram conductors, add to that the Corporation employees also wore the Manchester Coat of Arms as a badge as well
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Offline Wendi

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2009, 01:11:33 PM »
Thanks Chris ! 
i have never been able to get a definitive answer !.
I just thought I'd ask  :D

Wendi  :)
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it!  No matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and with your own common sense" ~ Buddha

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2009, 10:21:45 PM »
Did they actually go to fight wearing blue uniforms? I assume this was just the Pals.
As the photos are black and white, it is difficult to imagine the uniforms are in fact blue.

timberman

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2009, 10:51:00 PM »
Hi

No they didn't the uniforms were known as Kitchener Blue and were only used while the men were in training.
There are several photos in Stedmans book. There is also a thread on the forum somewhere that covered the same topic a while ago.

In theory a recruit who was accepted into the army was first sent to his Regimental depot, where he would receive his kit and be given an introduction to army discipline and training, before being sent to the main training camps to join his battalion. In practice, no Regiment had the required stocks of equipment, or the manpower to train the flood of recruits, men were trained in their own clothes and shoes. In order to mitigate this problem, old stored uniforms, including First Boer War vintage red jackets, were issued. Some Regiments bought their own uniform and boots with money paid from public collections. Many Regiments were also issued with emergency blue uniforms, popularly known as Kitchener Blue.


Timberman

 


rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2009, 10:10:12 AM »
Thank you for such a complete answer.
Rachel

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2009, 09:39:26 PM »
have a look at this photo, it shows a multitude of uniforms

click for bigger

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Offline mhargreaves

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2009, 10:34:46 PM »
 Great photo.
Forgive the light hearted comment:
Apart from the 21st century American hospital staff on the right there also appears, on the left, to be a flat capped chimney sweep who has snuck into the photo too.
Matthew Hargreaves
My great grandfather RSM John Hargreaves M.C. served with the 22nd Battalion Manchester Regiment

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 12:13:35 AM »
I'm sorry that I am still asking questions and hoping that you are able to provide answers.
I have read the book about the 21st Battalion but I am still unable to work out where Frederick P Bull was awarded the DCM. He is mentioned in the London Gazette on 4 March 1918.
The 21st Manchesters took part in heavy fighting on the Ypres Front especially on 4 and 26 Oct 1917 but from 27 Oct they seem to have remained in training in Ebblinghem until 10 November. After that they travelled to Italy and spent the rest of November and most of December in training. I don't understand what is meant by providing "working parties" in the defence line (Canareggio 24 - 30 Dec 1917) and (Crespano 6 -11 Jan 1918). They were in the front line in the Brenta-Piave area from 17 to 25 Jan 1918.   
Could the DCM mentioned on 4 March have been awarded for action as early as in October or as late as in December or January?

The citation you scanned before is not exactly the same as in the London Gazette. Can you tell me where your citation comes from, please?

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 09:07:22 AM »
A working party is basically a non-fighting unit whose job it is to support the front line, they would be bringing up supplies of food and ammunition, repairing and building trenches, railways, building huts, laying communication wires

The DCM citation come from a reference book on all the citations issued to the regiment
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rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 06:02:09 PM »
Thanks for your explanation. Would he have been in a position then to carry out the action for which he was awarded the DCM? I can't place him otherwise in a battle 3 months before March.

It's strange that your citation comes from a book - as a photocopy of the same citation was among my father's papers. Until I looked up the London Gazette I'd assumed it was from there but there are slight differences.

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2009, 09:11:07 PM »
at this point in time we can only guess at when it was earned, the battalion moved to Italy in November 1917 and was training and providing working parties

in my opinion we would/should be looking at the actions on October as being the most likely as being where he earned the DCM, but this is my opinion and nothing more

chris
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rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2009, 11:35:34 PM »
Yes, that would make it four months but more logical than the travelling and training time during November and December. When awarding medals they would probably also have considered major battles like the ones in October rather than the "quieter" time in December and January. (I'm afraid that sounds rather cynical considering there will have been losses then as well.)
It's strange that in the 21st Regiment book the place is sometimes given but not always. I would have thought the official records would always state the place, battle, date etc. but I suppose during wartime the emphasis was different.
Many thanks. 

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2009, 11:52:52 PM »

Fred's DCM was definitely awarded for a certain act of heroism under fire, as recognise by powers that be. the DCM was also awarded for continued distinguished contact over a period of time

If you look at chapter five in the 21st history, it is referring to the battle 3rd Ypres, sometimes called Passchendaele

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele
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