Author Topic: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st  (Read 10805 times)

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2009, 11:58:20 PM »
I certainly haven't lost interest!
I am glad to see that my guess of the Victory medal missing has been confirmed by an expert - thanks.
I have ordered the book on the 21st and am waiting for it to arrive before asking any questions that I may find answered there.
I have worked out that the DCM must have been awarded for distinguished conduct in Italy. I saw from another post that it was usually in the London Gazette 3 months later. The 21st transferred to Italy in November 1917 so I guess it was after that. 

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2009, 10:57:10 PM »
After browsing through the forum I see that the Service Record and Medal Card in colour can be obtained from Ancestry. Are the medical records also there?
Which is the correct way to spell sergeant? I find Sjt on the Medal Card and the gravestone, yet I have a typewritten copy of what seems to be a newspaper announcement of the time about my ancestor's death saying Sergt. The announcement entitled DIED OF WOUNDS refers to "another of our Urmston lads" - Do you have any idea which newspaper it could be from?
By the way a look through all the website gave me a lot of information e.g. I'd assumed Theatre of War first served in (1) was WWI, now I've seen it means Western Europe. I've copied and pasted the abbreviations used in Service Records in readiness for paying Ancestry!
With reference to a previous reply to my queries my ancestor's middle name came from my great-grandmother's maiden name but sometimes it was written as you said (I just wonder where you saw it!).
Many thanks.

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 12:54:18 AM »
there are some service records available on Ancestry, unfortunately approx 70% of soldiers service records were lost in the blitz in WW2, colour medal cards are available, but rarely add any further information

the spelling of sergeant with a J was not unusual but has now become out dated

here is his platoon photo, taken in the UK before he went to France

click for a bigger image

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Offline mhargreaves

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2009, 05:11:43 AM »
There is a published regimental history only £5.00 "The 21st Battalion the Manchester Regiment".
your relation is listed in the back.

Lord Kitchener was at Manchester town hall on 21st March 1915 along with the rest of the city battalions; "12 000 men in all"
The early training was a Belton Park, Grantham 4th May 1915 onwards.
"E company..proceeded to Heaton Park, Manchester where a depot was formed"
"on 11th september the battalion entrained for Larkhill Camp, Salisbury"

However, on page 25 it quotes a leaving Colonel Norman (promoted to Brigadier General):

" I can assure the battalion that i shall never forget the first days at the city hall, Manchester, our early training at Morcombe, Grantham and Salisbury."

Training in blue uniforms with no rifles?
Matthew Hargreaves
My great grandfather RSM John Hargreaves M.C. served with the 22nd Battalion Manchester Regiment

Offline mack

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2009, 06:13:45 AM »
After browsing through the forum I see that the Service Record and Medal Card in colour can be obtained from Ancestry. Are the medical records also there?
Which is the correct way to spell sergeant? I find Sjt on the Medal Card and the gravestone, yet I have a typewritten copy of what seems to be a newspaper announcement of the time about my ancestor's death saying Sergt. The announcement entitled DIED OF WOUNDS refers to "another of our Urmston lads" - Do you have any idea which newspaper it could be from?
By the way a look through all the website gave me a lot of information e.g. I'd assumed Theatre of War first served in (1) was WWI, now I've seen it means Western Europe. I've copied and pasted the abbreviations used in Service Records in readiness for paying Ancestry!
With reference to a previous reply to my queries my ancestor's middle name came from my great-grandmother's maiden name but sometimes it was written as you said (I just wonder where you saw it!).
Many thanks.
hiya rachel
the way its worded,sounds like its from the manchester evening news,there was also the manchester evening chronicle,but they very rarely used typescript like that,are you near manchester.

mack ;D

timberman

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2009, 07:39:28 AM »
I should of put this in my first post :)

This is the link to the publications that the Museum have for sale.

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/publications

The 21st Battalion book is there.

Timberman
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:44:36 AM by timberman »

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2009, 09:07:00 AM »
Thank you very much for all your replies.
What a wonderful photo! I shall have to ask the family before identifying F P Bull. Did the platoon have a number?
I am attaching a scan of the announcement which may have been copied by someone. I think from the wording it must be from a newspaper.
I am in Birmingham so it's not difficult to come to Manchester. Are the newspapers kept at the library?
I ordered the book on the 21st the day I first contacted you and hopefully it will arrive today. Then I hope I'll be able to follow the movements of the regiment. I am also hoping to find out the relevant badges (I tried to work them out from the photos on your site but didn't succeed) but I imagine that will be easier when I go to the museum.
Many thanks.
Rachel

rotated photo for you
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 11:23:59 AM by harribobs »

Offline mack

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2009, 10:50:15 AM »
hiya rachel
this looks like extracts of letters sent to his mum+dad,from the CO of his battalion or company,frederick was in E.company,XVIII platoon when his photo was taken.
theres a good chance that his obituary was published in the manchester evening news,i was hoping to get to manchester library in about 10 days,but it looks like work is going to hold me up.
apart from whats already posted,i dont have very much about frederick,all i know is that he was the son of john+annie bull,and he was the nephew of william+bertha settle of 16 callender st,chorlton on medlock.william settle was the brother of fredericks mother annie

mack ;D

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2009, 11:30:04 AM »
at the time of the photo he was in 21st Battalion, E company, 18th Platoon

chris
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2009, 05:55:18 PM »
Many thanks for that.

I'm still waiting for the book, so can't really make any progress on working out his movements and where he actually was when he was awarded the DCM. I am also assuming that he was promoted from Private to Sergeant when he received the medal.

Best wishes
Rachel

Offline mack

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 02:45:53 AM »
hiya rachel.
another source for info about frederick and possibly benjamin,may be found at st.clements church,urmston,frederick is listed on their war memorial,hes also listed on the urmston/flixton boys scouts memoriel

st.clements church
stretford rd,urmston

rev christopher brown
the vicarage
24 stretford rd
urmston

mack ;D

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 08:01:51 AM »
Thanks very much.
That's a lead I hadn't thought of at all. I'd forgotten about memorials in England, so it's very useful to know exactly where to look.
Best wishes
Rachel

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 09:05:53 PM »
 we think you should look at this man as a possible

“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

rmekic

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 11:23:47 AM »
Yes, that looks very much like the photo I have of him.
Cheers.
Rachel

Offline harribobs

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Re: Frederick Pattison Bull 21st
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 09:39:14 PM »

Training in blue uniforms with no rifles?

that's correct, there wasn't enough Khaki material around, so they bought in blue material which wasn't popular to say the least. Rifles were at a premium as well, the territorials used their out dated rifles for quite some time before they were issued with the SMLEs that the regulars had before the war
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."