Author Topic: Army Papers Gobblydegook  (Read 5688 times)

M/C P

  • Guest
Army Papers Gobblydegook
« on: November 30, 2007, 04:46:56 AM »
Hi there I have already confirmed that this one is mine, but his papers are a mystery to me and I was wondering if you could possibly help so that I can either ignore some of the references or write them up more lucidly please. I can understand most of it but this part perplexes me:
E Lancs RE Attested Spr 2 4 1910
E Lancs RE Embodied Spr 3 8 1914
427t EL Xd Co RE Transferred to Cla?? T TF Res ?
Anthy Western Command br. ch2/28346/3 1Ad/30 Spr

I know that Embodied probably means he was in the Regular Army at the outbreak of the war. He was in the Territorial Force from 1908 for 2 years and then rejoined in 1910.

Any advice would be appreciated. He was declared unfit for service in Nov 1917.

Thank you if you can help
Pat
This soldier has a younger bro but I will post it separately.


Offline harribobs

  • Site Monkey
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,181
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 09:43:48 AM »
Hi there I have already confirmed that this one is mine, but his papers are a mystery to me and I was wondering if you could possibly help so that I can either ignore some of the references or write them up more lucidly please. I can understand most of it but this part perplexes me:
E Lancs RE Attested Spr 2 4 1910
E Lancs RE Embodied Spr 3 8 1914
427t EL Xd Co RE Transferred to Cla?? T TF Res ?
Anthy Western Command br. ch2/28346/3 1Ad/30 Spr


I'll have a go but because they're out of context, it's a bit difficult

East Lancashire, Royal Engineers,  Spr  Sapper, embodied- read as enlisted,

427 is 42nd EL East Lancashire division, Comapny Royal Engineers

transfered to class Z reserve  Class Z was the 'reserve' fit troops were 'held' in case of another war, but they really were just demobbed

any use?
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 09:01:21 PM »
Thank you very much Chris, yes it looks like Class now, and thankyou for giving me the Division. I can make something of it now, it came from his Statement of Services. I will search through the Forum and see if I can find the answer to "BEF" from his Campaigns, I know he was at Gallipoli.

I do really appreciate your help Chris, I find it absorbing and interesting to research the soldiers in my family and I do my very best to record everything correctly.

Kind regards and many thanks again,
Pat

Offline harribobs

  • Site Monkey
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,181
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 09:20:58 PM »
sorry did i miss BEF?  british expeditionary force

oh and anthy is army

The 42nd east lancs div was the first territorial division to be deployed, including the manchester terrier battalions

this is quite a good potted history of the division

http://www.1914-1918.net/42div.htm

there's also a cd available of their history

chris
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2007, 02:46:56 AM »
No you did not miss it Chris, it was an afterthought so thank you. I searched for it and only one came up but the person obviously knew what it meant and only used BEF.
I will check the site you gave me. Anthy did not look like army but now I am sure it is thanks to you! and it makes sense now.

Thank you again,
Pat

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,120
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2007, 09:17:08 AM »
this soldier isnt a regular,hes a territorial.
i would think the term,embodied, would be associated with a territorial and his unit,being made ready for overseas service.
a regular soldier would be mobilised not embodied.
as far as i know,there were no regular REs units serving with the 42nd east lancs division on gallipoli,those that served on gallipoli with this division,were the 1st and 2nd field companies and a RE signal company,totalling 19 officers+568 men.
what are the names of the two brothers pat.

mack

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2007, 11:28:46 AM »
Thank you Mack
This was from his first Award for the pension:

Richard Toole, E Lancs RE 1st Field Co TF Sapper Reg 438240
Transfer to Class P ( T) Res 20 Apr 1917
Cause of Transfer Malaria.
Service TP 4 4/12
Emb          2 8/12
Total          7
Foreign Sevice   G W ?
                       Egypt 1-7 18/9/1914 - 20/5/1916
Foreign Service: Egypt 1 year 7 months.
Date of Enlistment 2/4/10 Date of Mobilization 5/8/1914
Cause of Transfer: Malaria.
Originated December 1915 Gallipoli ,
Result of Active Service. Infection Gallipoli.
Not Permanent  Minimum Duration 6 months.
Prevents[?] to 1/4 for 6 months & review

He was sick until 1920 or until they got sick of paying the few shillings.
 
Richard was born 2 May 1890 and his records states the name and dob of his child, so there is no doubt he is my Mum's Uncle Richard.

John Toole, his brother, born 1895. My question is did he follow Richard into the TF RE he was working at the same occupation as Richard had before he went into the Army, of Engine Driver, but by 1929 only John shows the same occupation and Richard just an address. It may be too hard to separate the other John Toole's listed, but I have asked the NA if they can see if he has burned legible papers for the same Regiment. I have not heard back:
Date 1914-1920
Catalogue reference WO 372/20 
Description Medal card of Toole, John
Corps Regiment No Rank
Royal Engineers 770 Sapper
Royal Engineers 438265 Sapper
I have addresses for Richard and John, for 1901, 1914-1920 for Richard and 1929 for Richard and John, I just thought if he was on the Absent Voters List there is a chance that this would give me a lead, John was not married until after the War and his dad died when he was 5, so Richard was probably a father figure.
But it is just speculation Mack, if you can help without going to a lot of trouble I would be very grateful.

Thank you for your advice,
Kind regards,
Pat

Offline mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,120
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2007, 01:07:15 PM »
hiya pat.
are you unsure about this john toole being your relative.
will this help
sapper 438265 john toole
237th company
royal engineers
33 blake st,hulme

is that him.
mack

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2007, 08:54:59 PM »
Dear Mack

Thank you so much he is my Great Uncle and absolutely sure that he is and that is indeed a great help to me!

Well, the area of Hulme is bang on, and although Blake Street is not one of the addresses I have, perhaps one of his sisters lived there so I will check this up to 1911 as I have their married names. I am hopeful now that you have got the right one. For all the John's that are listed there is no way of knowing the areas even if one got all their medals and he is the only John that had a similar pattern of TF and RE to Richard's.

I will work hard to confirm this and will post results on this Forum.

Thank you again Mack it is really so good of you and I am very grateful.

Kind regards

Pat

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobbledegook
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2007, 10:50:15 PM »
Have him Mack

Living at 33 Blake Street was John Toole's wife to be. Feel like celebrating but as you are unable to do that too I hope that the pleasure I feel will rub off on to you and the Forum.

I will now see about his medals after Christmas.

Have deleted John's separate post.

Such a good outcome Mack and Chris.

Kind regards,

Pat

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 10:19:36 PM »
Dear Mack and Chris

I thought that I would just let you know that the NA have come back to me and apparently my Great Uncle John Toole's service record does not appear to exist in the remnants of the salvaged burned ones.So you can see how good it was to have your help and information.

I will get a copy of his medals cards.

Kind regards,
Pat

M/C P

  • Guest
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2008, 12:59:41 AM »
John Toole is now confirmed as 770 Sapper Royal Engineers, beyond any doubt whatsover. It has come from an unlikely source , his marriage certificate's occupation description. That is so great and I cannot really thank you enough for your part. Many of us know precious little about our ancestors and their contribution to the Society we enjoy today. The hardest part is accepting that their army papers are no more and looking at all other avenues that can confirm their history.
Kindest regards and best wishes,
Pat

Offline harribobs

  • Site Monkey
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,181
Re: Army Papers Gobblydegook
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2008, 01:04:20 AM »

 ;D ;D ;D
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."