Author Topic: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment  (Read 9610 times)

Xenophon

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2009, 06:29:32 PM »
Hello again all,

Wow! I never expected so many responses to my enquiry and in such a short space of time.  I wanted to take on board everyone's thoughts and comments and try to think about a few of the comments posted before I chipped in another tuppence.

1) To harribobs and tonyrod - re: Pte 2545 James Harthen being regular army or reservist is very interesting - it might explain why I can't find him on the 'Schedule Type: Household' on either the 1891 or 1911 UK Census, although he's on the 1901 census, perhaps he was in barracks or serving somewhere with the regiment on those dates?

2) To themonsstar - my James Harthen came from Ashton Under Lyne (living at 133 Moss St, Ashton in 1901, occupation Horse Keeper and as a child at 81 Union St, Ashton in 1881).  His Ashton roots made me think he was with the 9th Bn but J ArdeRn was the only name that looked/sounded similar among the list on enlistments on 'The Ashton Pals' website and mispelling of the surname Harthen is not uncommon.  Also his Medal Index Card has 'RAMC' next to the three medals he was awarded - was he transferred out of the Manchesters and into the RAMC prior to his Great War active service?

3) To mack - yes, see above my great-grandfather's brother James Harthen lived at 133 Moss St, Ashton Under Lyne in 1901.

4) To The Colonel - just out of curiosity what newspaper originally published the 9 Bn (Ashton) Enlistments?  Just as background biographical information for James Harthen I found the following on Ian Rhodes' excellent All Our Yeasterdays website:

The Ashton Reporter 7 December 1901
FIRE AT ASHTON GASWORKS
Information was received at the Ashton Police Station at 7.15 on Friday night, from James HARTHEN, that the storeroom at the Ashton Gasworks was on fire. The alarm bells were rung, and a contingent of firemen dispatched to the scene. Upon the arrival of the fire brigade the fire was found to be underneath the floor of the storeroom in the second storey of the building. A branch pipe was got to work from the main in Katherine-street and also from the main in Burlington-street. The volume of water directed on to the flames had an appreciable effect, and after working about 15 minutes the fire was extinguished, the damage done being light. The origin of the fire is not stated.

Just for anyone who's unfamiliar with 1901 Ashton...(excuse my primitive attempts at drawing a map of places mentioned in the article):

---------------------------------------------------
Burlington Street
---------------------------------------------------
                                Ashton Gas Works
---------------------------------------------------
Katherine Street
-----------------------------------of the -----------------

----------------------------------------------------
Moss Street
----------------------------------------------------

I'm also wondering if any mispelling of the Harthen surname in a newspaper published in 1914 might possibly have been deliberate, from what I can gather from the family history research I've done so far 'Harthen' is a German surname, and with the depth of anti-German feeling in the UK in 1914 perhaps the newspaper mispelt his surname to make it sound more English/British?

Finally, something I wanted to ask fellow members - was there an Ashton Under Lyne and environs volume of The National Roll of the  Great War 1914-1918 published as I'm not sure the men of Ashton are included in the Salford and Manchester volume is this true?

Once again, many thanks to everyone who's commented on this thread so far, you're all terrific, Thank you so much!
Xenophon
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:47:54 PM by Xenophon »

The Colonel

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2009, 07:35:15 PM »
Hello Xenophon,

The 9th battalion enlistments were published in the Ashton Reporter. The lists are inconclusive and are peppered in errors. There are many mispelt surnames and wrong initials given to forenames.

I understand why you may think that the Harthen surname may have been mispelt deliberately at the time, however, I don't think this is the case - a young lad named Eddy HEINEMANN served with the 9th battalion, and you can't get a much more German sounding name than that!  ;)

Glad to hear that you have found some family information listed on Ian Rhodes website - it is shame that the local Ashton Studies Library changed the terms of use of their viewer/printer facililties because now poor Ian can no longer pursue his hobby. Ian photocopied and transcribed the Ashton Reporter in his own time and at his own expense, then he shared the information freely. He is a top man in my book! 
 
BTW, My father was born at 5, Moss St A-U-L ;D

The Colonel
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:09:14 PM by The Colonel »

Offline tonyrod

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2009, 08:49:10 PM »
ON THE 1911 CENSUS BUT NOT OPENED at address no more listed in ashton u l
HARTHEN ALICE F 1902 9 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
 HARTHEN ELIZABETH F 1877 34 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
 HARTHEN FLORENCE F 1900 11 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
 HARTHEN FREDERICK M 1909 2 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
 HARTHEN JOSEPH M 1907 4 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
 
Marriages Dec 1898   Standring  Elizabeth     Ashton  8d 788 HARTHEN  Joseph
NO SIGN OF JAMES. or JOSEPH .tonyrod

Xenophon

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2009, 10:16:47 PM »
Hello

To The Colonel - I take your point on German surnames, certainly Heinemann sounds more distinctly German than Harthen (I often get asked "What a unusual surname, where is it from?").  So your father was born in Moss Street?  That makes our families near neighbours  ;D

To tonyrod - Many thanks for the check of the 1911 census.  Elizabeth Harthen (nee Strandring) was Joseph's wife and Florence was their eldest child (all three appear on the 1901 census).  Not quite sure were Joseph had gone, nor James (and Martha).  James' 'disappearance' was another reason that made me wonder if he was the same man as Pte 2545 James Harthen, Manchester Regt.  James and Joseph Harthen had an elder brother Henry ('Harry') Harthen (my great-grandfather) who was also born in Ashton Under Lyne, but by 1911 he (Henry) was living in Dewsbury (where my grandfather was born in 1910) - Henry moved around quite a bit he married a woman from Diggle, called Mary Louisa Jagger and they had their first child there prior to moving to Blackburn, then Gorton, then the Fylde, then Dewsbury, before finally settling in Liverpool.  Confusing?  ???

Many thanks for your help,
Xenophon




Offline mack

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2009, 11:10:36 PM »
1881 james+joseph were living at 81 union st,ashton
1891 both were living at 156 cotton st,ashton,james was a cotton piecers assistant.

mack ;D
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 07:38:00 AM by mack »

Offline urdygurdy

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2009, 07:19:46 AM »
nothing to do with the above topic,my families,also live d on moss street,and cotton street.

Offline mack

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2009, 07:24:49 PM »
1861
jonathan+emma arthun
daughter elizabeth
22 peel st,ashton
occupation,miner

1871
jonathan+emma hadhen
garden walks,ashton
children
elizabeth
alice,hannah
joseph,newton[born 1863,died 1872]
sally
henry
emma
jane

1881
jonathan died just before the census
81 union st,ashton
emma harthen
children
elizabeth
alice,hannah
sally
henry
emma
jane
james
joseph[No2]

1891
156 cotton st,ashton
emma
james
joseph

mack
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 07:28:52 PM by mack »

Xenophon

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Re: Pte James Harthen, 2545, Manchester Regiment
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2009, 07:33:59 PM »
Hello Mack,

Many, many thanks for the 1891 census information, you are a 'star'.  So the family moved from Union St to Cotton St, then one street away to Moss St?  As James Harthen was a cotton piercer's assistant in 1891 and a Horse Keeper in 1901, he must have perhaps joined the Manchester Regiment when he was in his late-twenties, early-thirties?  Or perhaps he was in the Territorial Army before that?

While I was typing this I received your latest posting (re: the Harthen family census information) - absolutely fantastic!   

All the very best to you, and once again many, many thanks - I am in your debt.
Xenophon  ;D