Author Topic: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment  (Read 677 times)

Offline martinsugarman

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Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« on: March 06, 2022, 06:56:10 PM »
Am seeking information on Nathan Finklestein son of Sarah of Elm St Hightown Manchester - in Dorset Reg when KIA2/10/18

Offline Timberman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2022, 07:04:28 PM »
Hello Martin

Welcome to the Forum

 The following is Under soldier that died

Name:   Nathan Finklestein
Birth Place:   Korna, Russia
Death Date:   2 Oct 1918
Death Place:   France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:   Manchester, Lancs
Rank:   Private
Regiment:   Dorsetshire Regiment
Battalion:   1st Battalion
Regimental Number:   44534
Type of Casualty:   Killed in action
Theatre of War:   Western European Theatre
Comments:   Formerly 60637, Manchester Regiment.

 Timberman

Offline martinsugarman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2022, 07:13:24 PM »
Dear Timberman

Can you tell me if there is any more on him in any local newspapers - or indeed on the family, as his brother Louis was also killed. We have seen that Nathan has a Cross on his grave and the CWGC say it was default due to family not answering the verification form for symbol on grave; so we must prove he was Jewish and maybe a local newspaper has a story of his death and/or his brother, describing the family background. The Jewish Chronicle does not mention his death

Martin Sugarman (Archivist of AJEX UK)

Offline Timberman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2022, 07:52:16 PM »
 Hello Martin

 Someone else may be able to help as I don't have access to Fold 3 web site.
 He has pension cards and a listing in the Jewry Roll of Honour file.

 Pte N Finklestein
 in the UK, British Jewry Roll of Honour, 1914-1918

 The book can be read here just click on the link.

 https://www.jewsfww.uk/roll-of-honour.php

 I could only find two Finkelstien listed in the book, as you can see the spelling is different.
 I could not see your Nathan.

Timberman

 

Offline Timberman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2022, 09:17:04 PM »
 This is what I've found.

 The two brothers are listed in the British Jewry Roll of Honour,
 on page 445 under the Manchester Regiment. They enlisted at the same time
 going by their numbers.
 Nathan is listed as 56012 and in the 3rd Battalion. (looks like the Manchester number
 on the records is wrong)
 Louis is listed as 56009 and in the 2nd Battalion.
 Nathan is not listed under the Dorsetshire Regiment.

 The following is Under soldier that died for Louis

 Name:   Louis Finklestein
 Birth Place:   Kovna, Russia
 Death Date:   27 May 1918
 Death Place:   France and Flanders
 Enlistment Place:   Manchester
 Rank:   Private
 Regiment:   Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
 Battalion:   9th Battalion
 Regimental Number:   29228
 Type of Casualty:   Killed in action
 Theatre of War:   Western European Theatre
 Comments:   Formerly 56009, Manchester Regt.

 The following is for the joint Pension card, making their Mother the
 beneficiary, as with both the soldiers effects.

 Name:   L., N. Finklestein, Finklestein
 Rank:   Pte; Pte
 Record Type:   Card
 Service Number:   29228, 44534
 Corps, Regiment or Unit:   9Th Loyal. N. Lancs., Dorset
 Title:   WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
 Description:   Widows and Dependents of Other Ranks Died Filer A-Firth A
 Next of Kin:   Name   Relation to Soldier
 L., N. Finklestein, Finklestein
 
 S. Finklestein

 This from the CWGC site
 
 PRIVATE LOUIS FINKLESTEIN
 Service Number: 29228
 Regiment & Unit/Ship
 The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
 9th Bn.
 Date of Death
 Died 27 May 1918
 Buried or commemorated at
 SOISSONS MEMORIAL
 France

 
 Because they are both listed in the British Jewry Roll of Honour,
 that should be enough for the CWGC.

 Timberman










 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:19:56 PM by Timberman »

Offline martinsugarman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2022, 12:14:18 AM »
Timberman - Millie is the wrong family - the brothers Nathan and Louis only had a sister Gertie and I am waiting for her Jewish marriage cert which will help a little

Also the Manchester Reg is NOT page 445 in the Jewish Book of Honour and there is no number 56012 for Nathan that I can see - so PLEASE can you point out exactly where these numbers are from in the Jewish Book of Honour????

The Pension card I have and you quote is correct , and links the brothers to their mother BUT does not prove they are Jewish

Martin

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2022, 05:11:16 PM »
Martin,
You have me stumped. Nothing in the local papers for either son.
Is this the correct family? https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=24169598
Welcome to the forum
Tim
Are you related to Maurice Sugarman at Delville Wood Cemetery?  Long shot I know.
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
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Offline martinsugarman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2022, 05:24:14 PM »
Tim I cannot open the link you gave - asks me to join Ancestry and am not a member. What does the link show?

I would have thought that even though Manchester was a large city, it was not as big as now , back in 1918 - so would have thought  ALL casualties would have been listed/shown in WW1 in press. Is there not a big 'interest' group on WW1 in Manchester??

Martin

Offline Timberman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2022, 05:58:51 PM »

 Martin

 This is the family that Tim mentioned.

 Name:   Sarah Finklestein
Age in 1911:   54
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1857
Relation to Head:   Head
Gender:   Female
Birth Place:   Russia
Civil Parish:   Salford and Broughton
Country:   England
Street Address:   2 Caroline Street LB
Marital status:   Widowed
Registration District Number:   465
Sub-registration District:   Broughton
ED, institution, or vessel:   07
Piece:   23983
Household Members:   
Name   Age
Sarah Finklestein   54
Heyman Finklestein   21
Lewis Finklestein   18
Gerty Finklestein   18
Nathan Finklestein   15
Beeca Angelsky   17

I'll find the right page number for you. Where I thought that the name Finklestein
was unusual it would seem it was common, so whether the  Nathan I found with the number
56012 is the right one maybe not as you said.

There is a big interest group with regards to the Manchester Regiment and this is it.
We do have access to all of the available information on and off the internet.
Tim would of checked the local papers for any information and found nothing for you.

Please remember we fund this forum and the web site out of our own pockets
and also being members of other sites for the benefit of helping people with their
enquiries. We can't always get the answers that people want.
We will try our best to help you.

Timberman

Offline martinsugarman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2022, 06:20:39 PM »
Yes this is the family as far as we know - I have them on a copy of the 1911 census. The whole thing is a mystery in that except for their CWGC pages and a pension card naming their numbers and regiments at death (there is no mention of Manchester Regiment ) and mother as S. Finklestein at Elm Street - they seem to have left  no trail! It also appears that is nothing in local press, Jewish Chronicle, and the Rainscough Jewish cemetery War Memorial does not have their names - as far as can be seen online  anyway. I appreciate your help of course.

Do their Medal Index cards show their Manchester Reg. numbers?

Best

Martin

Offline Timberman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2022, 06:51:56 PM »
 The page number is 365
 The picture is  a screen shot of the page in the book.

 Click on the picture to make it bigger or download it.
 
Sadly it looks like neither of them went overseas with the Manchester's
as it's not recorded on their MIC's

 Timberman
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 06:59:05 PM by Timberman »

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2022, 09:07:57 PM »
Is there not a big 'interest' group on WW1 in Manchester??

Martin

Yes there is. This forum is just part of Manchester’s interest & dedication to the history of the Great War. Critical records were burned by an incendiary bomb in the London Blitz. This means there are voids in the records for numerous men who served in the Great War.
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
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Offline martinsugarman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2022, 10:12:47 PM »
This is brilliant - thank you so much - this must be them

One final question - do their belonging to the Manchester's appear on any documents - especially their Medal Index Cards? I now need to match their appearance in the BJBH to a real document such as the cards,  as the pension card shows only their CWGC regimental numbers in Dorsets and Loyal North Lancs

Martin

Offline Timberman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2022, 10:35:24 PM »
 
 Martin

 In my last reply I mention that there is no mention of the Manchester's
 on either Medal index card (MIC)

 Timberman

Offline martinsugarman

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Re: Finklestein in Manchester Regiment
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2022, 10:45:51 PM »
Tim and Timberman

One (I hope) final question - can you access and send me any document that places the 2 brothers in the Manchesters with those two close numbers in the BJBH page  eg a roll when they enlisted?? Were such lists ever made/survive????

Best

Martin