Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment

[damopk1]

I'm afraid I know next to nothing about military matters. Can you tell me what his rank badges, marksman and shoulder title signify?

Thanks

Damian

[harribobs]

The sergeants stripes and the crown denote his Warrant Officer rank, a high non-commisioned officer (i am open to correction on this! )

the crossed rifles show his proficiency in shooting, he would have been due extra pay

on on the shoulder you have a T with a 5 and under that manchester, this shows his battalion was the 5th (Wigan) battalion

[damopk1]

Thanks Harribobs. My mum says he was a Colour Sergeant Major.

It's funny how things crop up when you are researching your family tree but my mum just told me at the weekend that her sister has a newspaper report on his funeral. Apparently it was quite a big occassion because he helped a lot of people. Nobody has ever mentioned any of this to me before. I'll post a copy of it when I can get one.

I'm becoming quite fascinated by him and am going to gather everything I can find and write an account of his life.

Cheers

Damian

[themonsstar]

The photo shows the rank of Colour Sergeant this is not a Warrant Officer rank

[Fritz Bayer]

The photo shows the rank of Colour Sergeant this is not a Warrant Officer rank

Depends when the photo was taken. That rank/appointment badge denotes a CSM prior to 1915, CQMS 1915-18 or Colour/Staff Sergeant 1918 and on.

Dave

[harribobs]

there you go!

we've got the experts on board now!

so are we saying the photo was taken before his promotion to WO cl2?

[Fritz Bayer]

so are we saying the photo was taken before his promotion to WO cl2?

Again, it depends on when the photo was taken (getting confused yet? ).

Just using this particular rank badge -

pre feb 1915, a CSM wasn't a WO (but was a WOII from 1915, but badged differently to this (crown on the lower sleeve - the pre Feb 1915 RSM badge)).

CQMS (this badge from 1915-1918) is a WOII.

Colour/Staff Sergeant (this badge 1918 onwards) - not a WOII.


So, if the photo was taken 1915-18, then this photo does indeed show him as a WOII. If it's taken pre-1915 (which I don't think it is) or in 1918 then it shows him before he was a WO.

Clear as mud? 

Dave

[Wendi]

Dave not to make the mud deeper, but is there any criteria for crossed rifles with a crown above?

ie: forget the stripes

Wendi 

[Fritz Bayer]

Musketry instructor. Trade/skill badges are always worn above the rank badge for NCO's/WO's (but below the rank badge if a WO who is badged on the lower sleeve!). If he wasn't , it'd just be the stripes and the crown

Dave

[Fritz Bayer]

You've actually just got me thinking there Wendi. ("always look beyond the obvious" is one of my mottos! )

He could possibly be a Sergeant Musketry Instructor on that pic and not what I've been talking about earlier...mmmm!    I'll have to have a think about this one!

Dave

[damopk1]

I've just learned that the Museum of the Manchester Regiment is in Ashton-Under-Lyne which is just a few miles from where I now live, Broadbottom. I'm going to try to go there on Saturday and see if I can find out anything useful.

Damian

[tisgrannie]

Damian. no disrespect to the Museum. Lovely bunch, you have THEE manchester experts right here. I don't think I'm wrong. I go to the Museum for lectures they are running. Garry the Curator is a very nice chap. By all means go and look around. There is also a terrific place over in Ashton at the Archives.
http://www.tameside.gov.uk/familyhistory/archives/material
They actually hold the Manchester Regt Archives. I'm sure someone will verify this shortly.
The Museum is great you will be proud when you see it. Also the Archives when you read the link, they have so much. You can get the newspaper cuttings also. You will find the folks very helpful over there.
Best wishes
tisgrannie
ps. I'm not saying that they aren't good at the Museum. I just truly believe we have quite a few experts on here. Authors, lecturers, Military historians.

[Fritz Bayer]

He could possibly be a Sergeant Musketry Instructor on that pic and not what I've been talking about earlier...mmmm!    I'll have to have a think about this one!

Dave

Ok - I've had a think (and a bit of a dig around) now, and....... without seeing his other sleeve, it's impossible to tell!

The instructor badge would have been worn on the right sleeve only so , if it was 3 chevrons and a crown on his left sleeve, then my first post on this thread would apply (and it all - again- depends on the date of the photo). If only 3 chevrons were to be found on his left sleeve, then he's a Sergeant Musketry Instructor.

However - Musketry instructors tended to be only Sergeants, Colour/Staff Sergeants or QMS's. This, and the fact that he seems to have gone overseas later rather than earlier in the war (most battalion musketry instructors remained in the UK) indicates that this photo was taken before he attained WO status - probably still in the UK and probably as a Sergeant.

Got a headache now!

Dave

[damopk1]

Thanks for all the hard work Fritz. It's very complicated and I would never have been able to figure all this out without your knowledge. It's astonishing just how much information can be inferred from a single photograph! Sherlock Holmes would have been impressed.

Damian

[Wendi]

Got a headache now!
Dave

Sorry Dave I feel responsible !  I'll PM you some paracetamol 

Thanks for the research, I knew you'd be able to sort it out, and I found your explanation very interesting.

Wendi