Sambre-Oise Canal : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.- Distinguished Conduct Medal Awards

[PhilipG]

The battalion history records the following interesting details concerning the above in respect of the November 1918 battle.   Any comment welcome.

46695 L/Cpl H. Garrard  -  Crossing Oise Canal near Ors.   9025 A/Sgt. W.Glynn MM & Bar  -  Crossing Oise Canal near Ors.    1483 Sgt. E.Lavelle MM  -  Near Ors.

22016 Pte J. Redikin  -  Crossing Oise-Sambre Canal.         8468 Cpl J.Snape - North of Ors.       57983 Pte H.E.Southern  -  North of Ors.   

PhilipG.

[mack]

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sambre-oise canal awards

posted 17-10-2013

mack

[PhilipG]

Mack,

Very many thanks.    I saw my contribution you mention before posting today.    However, there are, after the passage of time , some matters that I will enlarge upon in due course and will value your opinion thereon.       PhilipG.

[mack]

cpl/signaller 8468 john,peter snape.9 duke st,bradford,manchester

john was reported wounded and missing on 26th august 1914,he was captured by the germans but managed to escape and made it back to the british lines,he had become detatched from the 2nd battalion so they were unaware that he had been taken to hospital and then sent to england suffering from shell shock and a slight wound to his eye,it wasnt till the 27th october 1914 that news was recieved that he was safe in hospital in england

mack

[mack]

22016 james redikin,5 day st,oldham rd,manchester

james originally joined the 23rd bantam battalion,he was only 5.2 tall,one of 7 brothers,all his brothers were of normal height,he was the runt of the litter
theres a great photo of james in michael stedmans manchester pals book,hopefully,one of the gang can post the picture for you[i dont know how to do this]

mack

[PhilipG]

Mack,
   Thank you. Your reference to Corporal Snape was most helpful.  I've spent a few enjoyable days with maps etc in research and have been fortunate in being given access to the Dorsets' Regimental History.    Thus, I am now able to ascertain where A & B coys. of the Manchesters and men of the 16th Lancs. Fusiliers having traversed the floating bridge to the opposite shore of the canal, through the brave exploits of 206 Field Company R.E., actually landed and importantly, their dispositions for battle thereafter.

As you will know, four VC's were awarded, including one for 2nd Lt Kirk and one to Colonel Marshall (ex 2 i/c 2nd Manchesters).    Marshall's VC was claimed by the Irish Guards, despite him being the CO of the 16th Lancs.. Fusiliers, a matter in which King George V was involved. Unbelievable.  (The Lancashire Fusiliers had therefore to reduce their VC total from 18 to 17).    Thanks again.      PhilipG.

[PhilipG]

 Mack,
Moving on.   You will have noticed that the soldiers mentioned at the beginning of this thread were all awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal.   It is my understanding, that the award of this medal was at some time reduced in number, the Military Medal taking its place, but I'm not an expert in such a matter.   However, in respect of the DCM, the 2nd battalion history lists just about one column on the relative page, but two columns for the Military Medal, which would suggest a difference in status, perhaps, between the two medals.    But, as I have said, I am not an authority upon the award of medals.

Moving now to conjecture !    Do you think that as the war had ended, the opportunity was then taken by all units to submit numerous medal recommendations, some of high status, reflecting well upon the unit concerned, guessing perhaps correctly, that the appropriate authority would be more readily disposed to agree to the battalions' bravery recommendations - including that of the Guards ?      Just a thought.       PhilipG.

[mack]

hiya philip
ime not sure what you mean,sorry but ime not the brightest button in the box

what i do know is,if a commanding officer recommended a soldier for the DCM and the authorities judge that he didnt quite do enough for this award,then he wont be awarded ANY gallantry medal,the same applied for other gallantry awards

however,if a commanding officer recommended a soldier for a gallantry award but didnt specify which gallantry medal,the authorities will judge which award he was entitled to.

i vaguely remember a incident where the colonel of a battalion recommended one of his men for the military medal,the colonel only wrote a brief citation,the award was refused,the colonel became quite miffed about this,because he believed his man deserved the MM,so the colonel later re-wrote his citation,but this time he was long winded about it,the citation being a few pages long,and he left out which award he was recommending him for,the soldier concerned was awarded the victoria cross
for the life of me,i cant remember the soldiers name

mack

[PhilipG]

Thank you Mack, for your helpful remarks re the award of the DCM.  These seem to coincide with my point that the award of the MM ranked below that of the DCM, leading to my indication that after the end of hostilities, there was a tendency to submit recommendations for the DCM which would have been unwise to submit previously.  This tendency was also evident from the records of the 1st Dorsets and their crossing of the "Dorsetshire Bridge" as the Official History calls it.        The only battle that comes readily to mind in the matter of numbers of the award of the Victoria Cross is the "six VCs  before breakfast" assault by the Lancs. Fus. on the 25th April 1915 in Gallipoli.    Naturally, my eyes were drawn to the number of well-earned VCs awarded on the 4th November 1918, an attack by the 2nd Manchesters and the 16th Lancs, Fusiliers which the Official History tells us as "being unsuccessful" !

The last paragraph of Reply No. 6 is worthy of consideration, but perhaps more fitted to a battlefield discussion in Ors Communal Cemetery where two of the winners of that famous medal now lie.   It remains just a thought.      PhilipG.