Author Topic: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??  (Read 539 times)

Offline XYZ#1

  • *
  • Posts: 7
Hi,

I'd be really grateful if anyone could assist in my search for my Great Uncle. Ernest William Cutcliffe b. 1875. I have found him on the Yorkshire Regt. war graves site -

 "Private Ernest William Cutcliffe, MM. 35402. 5th Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment, formerly G/16236 Royal West Kent Regt. Killed 18 June 1918. Aged 43"

And on his Service Medal Record it shows he was also in the Manchester Regt. service number 41656 - I know changing regiment was not uncommon, but was hoping someone could provide some further information about him whilst in the Manchesters and whether he gain his Military Medal whilst in this regiment.

Please let me know

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 01:23:54 PM »
Hello and welcome to the forum, I presume xyz#1 is not your real name  ;D

As you already know he served with the QORWKR, as the regiment does not appear on the medal rolls his service with them would only have been in the UK. He won his MM with the 17th Bn Manchester Regt, the award was Gazetted in the London Gazette on 29 Aug 1917, this would indicate he won it about May 1917, maybe Tim Bell can help.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30259/supplement/9001

He was then transferred to the 3rd Bn Manchester Regt which was stationed in the UK. After which he was transferred to the 1/5th Bn Yorkshire Regt. While he was serving with C Company he was taken prisoner by the Germans on 11.4.1918 at or near Estaires and died of his wounds in the Fortress Hospital Cologne, having had an arm amputated.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2249278/3/2/

Charlie

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,387
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 03:14:41 PM »
Hi XYZ,
I've tried to build a full list of MM awards for 17th Bttn and I'd never seen Edward Ernest Cutcliffe before.  He's not recorded in Michael Stedman's Pals Book either.

Prior to 3rd Ypres on 31 July 1917 the previous assault was near Arras on 23 April. There were a large number of bravery awards issued for this, with MMs Gazetted on 9/7/1917 and Ernest isn't recorded in the Battalion records for this.  I can only imagine that the MM relates to a trench raid, or some other act of bravery in the Ypres Salient between May and July 1917.  He may even have been attached to another unit.

Based on the Regimental Number, I estimate Ernest was drafted to the Manchesters in the Summer of 1916.

Welcome to the Forum
Tim
Edit for my getting wrong name.  My searches were for Cutcliffe, so no help sadly.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 04:42:48 PM by Tim Bell »
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline XYZ#1

  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 03:18:30 PM »
Charlie, thank you so much.

You're right 'XYZ#1' is not my real name - most call me Martin - hello!

Do we have any way of telling what he did to gain the MM? I'll have a look through the Regimental War Diaries online at the National Archives to see if I can identify the engagement, if that would help? or do you have records there?

I'm guessing you got the information supplied in the posts from his service record? and wondered whether it would be possible to let me have a copy?

I'm also intrigued by the POW/medical records and how I would view them from the icrc.org link you supplied - any help appreciated.

Many thanks

Martin


Offline XYZ#1

  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 03:21:59 PM »
Thanks Tim, and hi

Just a small correction it was Ernest William Cutcliffe - not Edward as you wrote - don't know whether this may have skewed your search??

Martin

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,387
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2020, 04:59:13 PM »
Hi Martin,
Sorry for writing Edward rather than Ernest.  I've edited my post.  I had a scan of the War Diary and that didn't really help.  It is a good record and notes most bravery awards, but no mention of Ernest.  The Record of 16th-18th Bttns also records bravery awards and Ernest is omitted from the list for 17th Bttn, or 16th, 18th or 19th.
It's a bit of a mystery, but LG confirms the award to Manchesters https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30259/supplement/9001
There was a succesful trench raid in Mid June, so that's a possibility.  He may have been wounded in the action, with the award not being reported back to the Battalion.  It's also possible Ernest was on long term attachment with the Trench Mortar Battery, Machine Gun Corps etc.  Working parties were sent to 2nd Canadian Tunnelling Coy and 4 men were killed, but I would imagine any act of bravery would've been noted by the Manchesters officer.
Have you seen this War Memorial Roll? https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/16553
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2020, 05:36:29 PM »
Hi Martin,
His service record appears to have been destroyed in the 1940 Blitz along with 60% of the WW1 soldiers records. The information I posted has come from the sources I have linked to or posted. The citations for the MM were never published, try searching the archives of the newspapers local to where he lived.

You can view the Red Cross records by entering the numbers at the bottom right of his index card, which I linked to, into the reference number box on the right.

Charlie

Offline XYZ#1

  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2020, 06:07:41 PM »
Charlie,

Thanks for the info already supplied - greatly appreciated and understand many records no longer exist.

As for the Red Cross records, also kindly supplied, I have tried entering both numbers displayed 'PA 35551' takes me to a page full of 'B' surnames with no 'cut...' anything in the 'C's on the following pages?!

Interrupting the 2nd number is trickier...

'PA 57961' - doesn't exist!

'PA 87961' - doesn't exist

'PA 7961' - takes me to a page of 'M', 'S' & 'R' surnames, but no Cutcliffe - what am I doing wrong!!!?

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2020, 06:16:05 PM »
Martin,
I don‘t know what you are doing wrong with PA35551 but the second number is PA 37196. I‘ve attached them for you.
Charlie

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,387
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2020, 06:28:17 PM »
Pte 41653 Ebenezer James Cornell attested under the Derby Scheme in QORWK in Dec 1915 - No 16261. He was mobilised on 21/06/1916 and posted to their 3rd Bttn.  Ebenezer joined the BEF on 11/10/1916 and was transferred to 17th Bttn on 22/10/1916.  He was killed in 3rd Ypres on 31/07/1917.
I suggest Ernest Cutcliffe was part of the same West Kent draft, arriving in France and posted to the Battalion in late October 1916.
Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,387
    • Grandad's Journey
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline XYZ#1

  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2020, 11:44:58 AM »
Thank you both Tim & Charlie for all the help and information you've been able to provide

If you do unearth anything more please let me know

Kind Regards
Martin

Offline XYZ#1

  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 01:05:35 PM »
Hi Tim & Charlie,

Hope you are keeping well.

I followed up your links to the artist Sara Trillo and her display at the Faversham Society and they have since come back to me with the following which I thought you may be interested in as it contains a photo of Ernest (looks like when he was in the UK in the Royal West Kent Regt. looking at the cap badge) and mentions his brave action near Hooge, which led to the Military medal - not sure whether the trench raids you previously mentioned as possible candidates were in this area? and includes an image of his Military Medal notification from the Major General

Kind regards
Martin

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 02:46:13 PM »
Hi Martin
Thanks for the update and the photos. The certificate for the MM dates the award to after 30th April 1917, this being the date Maj.Gen Williams was appointed GOC 30th Division. Perhaps Tim has some information as to what the battalion was doing near Hooge in the Ypres salient.

Charlie

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,387
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Pte. E W Cutcliffe, Manchester Regt. 41656 - Military Medal??
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 06:11:34 PM »
17th Bttn were on the move or training throughout May 1917.  They arrived at the Salient and moved to the Forward Area on 9/6/1917.  From the War Diary:-
“On the night of 13/14 June at 1AM, a RAIDING PARTY consisting on 2nd LT [Stanislaus Alfred] Knowles [Joined Bttn from Base 28/5/1917] and 53 OR [Other Ranks] entered enemy lines and took 2 prisoners – Our Casualties 3 OR slightly wounded.”
Prior to the raid the Bttn held the line at Wellington Crescent and Ritz Trench, east of Zillebeke and near Zouave Wood.  The German Front Line was at Hooge (28NW 18), so it seems likely it was during this raid that Ernest Cutcliffe earned his MM Award.  17th Bttn didn’t return to the Hooge area until 31/7/1917, at the opening of the 3rd Battle of Ypres.  MM Awards for this action were published in September, so the timing of the Award fits with the Trench Raid.
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/