July 1916 Drafts to City Battalions

[Tim Bell]

I've been looking at the make-up of the 17th Bttn for quite a while, interested in the change in context for the Pals nature of the Bttn.
There were hundreds of men posted in mid july 1916 and transferred on 1/9/1916.  Many men in the drafts were killed at Guillemont on 30/7/1916, yet few records identify they were serving with the Manchesters.  In fact,quite a few were not even commemorated by CWGC and I suspect others remain outstanding.
Has anyone researched these men before?
Tim

[mack]

I recall a big draft of men from the border regiment who were attatched to the pals around the time,cant quite remember the details tim,i think they were with the 16th+17th battalion

mack

[Tim Bell]

Hi Mack,
There were certainly Border R amongst many other Regiments.  I've looked at R Berks R in 17th before & found 16 Regiments attached before 30/7/1916.
Currenly looking at Lancs Fusil in 18th Bttn.  90th Bgd WD says 79 were missing at Guillemont.  I've found this draft prob arrived in France in June 1916, from Middx & Suffolk R. Transferred to LF and then att to 18th Bttn before they were killed on 30/7/1916. Here's an example of Robert William Sewell, although it doesn't mentin att to Manchesters. He was 22879 in Suffolk R. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60454/de_ruvignys_vol_5-de_ruv_vol5_pg_0149?pid=8308&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D60454%26h%3D8308%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D1543&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.234416797.2043467720.1573889904-666978586.1521393766
I have the sense that many families (and Army) sometimes had little idea about the attachment and resulting place and circumstances of death.
I've also bitten off more than I can chew with this conquest!
Tim

[mack]

tim,most of us have bitten off more than we can chew,i put mine to one side,and bite off bits in my own good time,if you've already put time into it tim,it would be a shame to waste all your effort,stick it in a folder and work on it when your in the mood

mack

[PhilipG]

Tim,
           Recently, I had a look at "Soldiers Died" for the 17th Manchesters, prompted by your mention of the Royal Berkshires of which there are a number listed under the 17th Manchesters' name
           and I came across the following Warrant Officers: -

44694 CSM Harry Brindley MM, formerly 13954 Royal Fus.  Kia 22.3.18     Savy British Cemetery.
12555 CSM Wm. Dickinson (recorded as Dickenson) formerly 5205 Lancs. Fus.  Kia 30.4.18      Tyne Cot Memorial.

          I was intrigued to learn whether or not the warrant officer rank was held prior to their transfer to the Manchesters, and in the case of CSM Brindley, with which regiment did he win the MM. 
          Can you help, please?       PhilipG.

[charlie]

Philip,
CSM Brindley‘s MM was awarded to him while a Sgt (Manchesters) and Gazetted on 6th July 17. I think the average delay between the deed and the Gazette date was 3 months - an award for Arras?
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30172/supplement/6827

Charlie

[mack]

CSM brindley won his MM with the 19th manchesters,he was a sgt at the time

CSM 12555 William Dickinson
19th manchesters
6th platoon.A.coy
29 new Herbert st,irlam
wounded in the left arm 23-7-16
age at the  time 38
he previously served with the lancs fusiliers before the war
its believed he was killed with the Monmouthshire regt[service number 316602]not sure if this is correct

mack

[PhilipG]

Charlie & Mack,

Thank you.   PhilipG.

[Tim Bell]

Men in the Draft to 17th Bttn who subsequently received Awards include:-


CSM J E  Young DCM 43403
Gazetted 3/6/18 & 21/10/18. Born Hulme.  For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty.  Although badly shaken and partially buried by a shell which killed the man next to him, he remained at duty and together with a sergeant reconnoitered a communication trench leading to a pill box from which our men had driven.  His report was of the greatest assistance to the attacking party which captured the pill-box.  His example and cheerfulness are always inspiring.  (I need to check where CSM Young was posted from.)

Private William R Spratley MM 43337 Gazetted 9/7/17 for action at Heninel 23/4/17 posted to D Company.  William was a former member of the Royal Berks Regiment 20115; probably posted to the 17th Manchesters with a number of Berks men on 1/9/16 (Arrived France after 1915).  He was previously resident of 14 Wykeham Road, Earley.  He was later promoted Lance Corporal and then transferred to the Queens (West Surrey) Regiment G69592.

Private Charles Pascoe DCM 43143

Gazetted 22/10/17 and 26/1/18 for action at Ypres 15/9/17.  Private Thomas Dunn DCM 33875 had the same citation. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty.  Accompanied by another man, he went out some 200 yards to a detached post to bring in a wounded man.  They dressed and carried in the man 700 yards across the open in broad daylight, in spite of rifle, machine gun fire from an aeroplane, and in the latter stages very heavy shell fire.  Had the wounded men been left until night he would undoubtedly have died.  He set a splendid example of courage and devotion to duty. Charles Pascoe was formerly 5401 Royal Berks Regiment. 

[mack]

CSM 43403 john Edward young
formerly WOII 10117 1st east surrey regt

mack

[Tim Bell]

Thanks Mack,
CSM Young must have proved a very useful addition to 17th Bttn, in the context that so many Senior NCOs & officers were lost in July 1916. 

Most of the drafts were comprised of Privates recruited on the Derby Scheme, some volunteering for Home Service, or possibly conscripted.  Many had been mobilised as late as March 1916, so very limited training before the Guillemont assualt on 30 July.

Most of the drafts had arrived in France around  1 July, so Guillemont must have been an incredible baptism of fire.  The changing dynamic of fighting with the seasoned Mancunians is also fascinating.

I'm not sure of incredible or fascinating are the right words. 

T

[PhilipG]

Tim,

Re postings from the Royal Berks. Regt.   I had another look at "Soldiers Died" for the 17th Manchesters and  found the names of 13 casualties formerly serving in the Royal Berks.   That suggests it must have been a big draft originally.     Wading through "Soldiers Died" is never wasted.  Always some brief picture of a man's life seems to emerge.   For instance, a man enlists in beautiful Tenby joining the RASC, gets transferred to the 17th Manchesters and ultimately dies of wounds in 1918 and is buried in a cemetery at Ham.   All very sad.    PhilipG.

[Tim Bell]

Hi Philip,
The R Berks were the largest group to be transferred on 1/9/1916.  Based on the number sequence there were at least 74.  In addition 2-6 were killied at Guillemont.
I've only found 2 members of E Surreys. CSM 43403 Young and Sgt 43402 J S R Tomkins.  43404 is CSM H A Smith from Queens W Surreys, prev 7315 1st Nothants.

[Tim Bell]

Quite a few of the July drafts were Derby Scheme recruits, where service records show Attestation in 1915 and mobilisation in the 1st few months of 1916.  Other men were posted in 1916, immediately after enlisting.  Does this mean they were conscripted under the Military Services Act?
Cheers
Tim