Author Topic: timberman  (Read 887 times)

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2019, 07:31:14 PM »
Philip

It would seem that on the Trench map St Quentin wood was
a lot larger than Holnon wood, This wood was south of the railway line
that is now a track and just below the D686 on the modern map.

On the first map I've marked the Roman road as a straight blue line,
the railway line as dots and St Quentin Chapel as the circle.
On the modern map I've just marked in red the line of the railway,
so in WW1 Holnon wood was small, is it that somewhere over the years
they dropped the St Quentin wood name?

click on the pictures to make them bigger.

Neil
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 07:33:41 PM by Timberman »

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2019, 08:04:00 PM »
Mack
Rechecked the war entry for the 13th Sept.

The Bn were still in the trenches until relieved by the Essex's
Regiment, this was not completed until 7pm.
It says 1 o/r wounded and 1 o/r killed.
The Bn moved away from the area on the 14th by Bus.
to the Le Neuville area.
This would account for him being buried with the others killed on the 12th
in the same cemetery.

Neil


Offline mack

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Re: timberman
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2019, 10:27:21 PM »
hiya neil
the original grave reports say that private gill was killed on 13th but on the main CWGC site they give the date of death as 12th,hes not buried with the others.


mack

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2019, 09:31:31 AM »
I think I was a bit confused not hard to do :)

There was no causalities on the 10th or the
11th. On the 11th the following Officer of the
2nd Bn was killed attached to the T M Baty 
and is buried in
GRAND-SERAUCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY, Aisne, France

HOWARD, Second Lieutenant, WILLIAM HYSON, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment.
attd. "X" 32nd T.M. Bty., Killed in action 11 September 1918. Age 24. Son of Robert
and Sarah Howard, of 34, Marchmont Rd., Edinburgh. Born at Ashton-under-Lyne.
Grave Ref. VIII. F. 2.

All the soldiers that died on the 12th and Frisk on the 13th according to the CWGC from the
2nd Bn are buried in TREFCON BRITISH CEMETERY, CAULAINCOURT, Aisne, France

It says that W Frisk died on the 13th this has to be correct as the other
soldier that died on the 13th died of wounds he was

MARTIN, Serjeant, H, 7683, M M, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 13 September 1918.
Grave Ref. I. Z. 22.
and is buried in
SAVY BRITISH CEMETERY, Aisne, France


FISK, Private, W, 270089, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 13 September 1918. Son of
Mrs. L. Fisk, of Providence Villa, Craig Rd., Hurn, Raydon, Southwold, Suffolk. Grave
Ref. A. 4.

This is what I think happened, Frisk was killed on the 13th and was buried with the others before the Bn moved.
Where as Martin was removed to a clearing station and died and that is why he was buried in
SAVY BRITISH CEMETERY, Aisne, France and not with the others in
TREFCON BRITISH CEMETERY, CAULAINCOURT, Aisne, France


The eight other soldiers that died on the 12th and are buried in the same cemetery
as Frisk

 ARBUTHNOT, Private, J, 53231, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Son of Mrs. V. Arbuthnot, of 39, Rumford St., Bridgeton, Glasgow. Grave Ref. A. 7.

ASHTON, Private, HERBERT, 351072, "B" Coy. 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12
September 1918. Age 24. Son of Mrs. Selina Neale, of 66, Bradgate St., Ashton-under-
Lyne, Lancs. Grave Ref. A. 3.

BANYARD, Private, PERCY, 44824, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September
1918. Age 20. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Banyard, of Upperthorpe, Sheffield. Grave
Ref. A. 1.

ENTWISTLE, Private, W, 251935, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Son of Mr. R. Entwistle, of 615, Halliwell Rd., Bolton. Grave Ref. A. 2.

GILL, Private, J, 302950, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Brother
of Mr. J. Gill, of 10, Holland St., Newton, Manchester. Grave Ref. A. 8.

MAIN, Private, HERBERT GLADSTONE, 245329, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment.
Killed in action at Marteville 12 September 1918. Age 20. Son of Edwin Arthur and Ada
Jane Main, of 59, Ley St., Ilford, Essex. Grave Ref. A. 2.

MARTIN, Private, W H, 352914, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Age 35. Son of Margaret Martin, of 22, Bredbury St., Cowhill, Oldham, and the late
Joseph Martin. Grave Ref. A. 1.

MARTINDALE, Private, P, 44816, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Husband of Mrs. M. J. Martindale, of 224, Shelly Rd., Preston, Lancs. Grave Ref. A. 2.

I hope I've not confused everyone.

Neil

Offline PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2019, 09:47:32 AM »
Re Reply No 15.     First of all, what a photographic masterpiece.  Secondly, as regards the size of St. Quentin Wood, I see your point, providing you use the railway line as a boundary.   Thirdly, I see that the shape of Holnon Wood as displayed on my 1: 100,000 map dated 2004 appears exactly to be the same shape as that on the WW1 trench map.

Going back to Reply No 13 in which I referred to the map maker.   Afterwards, it occurred to me that it could have been the case that the maker of the trench map merely translated into English from the French for "Saint Quentin Wood", my reasoning being that such info. of importance to the British Army would similarly be of importance to the French travellers.  But of course, that is all conjecture.   PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2019, 10:46:47 AM »
Timberman,
Again referring to your maps in Reply No 15 and in particular to the "modern day map".     I see that it not only pictures Manchester Hill Redoubt, but also the Enghien Redoubt of 2/4th Oxfords' fame.    Of particular interest is that "Squash Valley"  is also visible.   It was there in April 1917 that the 2nd Manchesters, including Wilfred Owen, assembled before going forward through Fayet in order to attack and capture a position outside St. Quentin.   PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: timberman
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2019, 10:48:20 AM »
I think I was a bit confused not hard to do :)

There was no causalities on the 10th or the
11th. On the 11th the following Officer of the
2nd Bn was killed attached to the T M Baty 
and is buried in
GRAND-SERAUCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY, Aisne, France

HOWARD, Second Lieutenant, WILLIAM HYSON, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment.
attd. "X" 32nd T.M. Bty., Killed in action 11 September 1918. Age 24. Son of Robert
and Sarah Howard, of 34, Marchmont Rd., Edinburgh. Born at Ashton-under-Lyne.
Grave Ref. VIII. F. 2.

All the soldiers that died on the 12th and Frisk on the 13th according to the CWGC from the
2nd Bn are buried in TREFCON BRITISH CEMETERY, CAULAINCOURT, Aisne, France

It says that W Frisk died on the 13th this has to be correct as the other
soldier that died on the 13th died of wounds he was

MARTIN, Serjeant, H, 7683, M M, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 13 September 1918.
Grave Ref. I. Z. 22.
and is buried in
SAVY BRITISH CEMETERY, Aisne, France


FISK, Private, W, 270089, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 13 September 1918. Son of
Mrs. L. Fisk, of Providence Villa, Craig Rd., Hurn, Raydon, Southwold, Suffolk. Grave
Ref. A. 4.

This is what I think happened, Frisk was killed on the 13th and was buried with the others before the Bn moved.
Where as Martin was removed to a clearing station and died and that is why he was buried in
SAVY BRITISH CEMETERY, Aisne, France and not with the others in
TREFCON BRITISH CEMETERY, CAULAINCOURT, Aisne, France


The eight other soldiers that died on the 12th and are buried in the same cemetery
as Frisk

 ARBUTHNOT, Private, J, 53231, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Son of Mrs. V. Arbuthnot, of 39, Rumford St., Bridgeton, Glasgow. Grave Ref. A. 7.

ASHTON, Private, HERBERT, 351072, "B" Coy. 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12
September 1918. Age 24. Son of Mrs. Selina Neale, of 66, Bradgate St., Ashton-under-
Lyne, Lancs. Grave Ref. A. 3.

BANYARD, Private, PERCY, 44824, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September
1918. Age 20. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Banyard, of Upperthorpe, Sheffield. Grave
Ref. A. 1.

ENTWISTLE, Private, W, 251935, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Son of Mr. R. Entwistle, of 615, Halliwell Rd., Bolton. Grave Ref. A. 2.

GILL, Private, J, 302950, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Brother
of Mr. J. Gill, of 10, Holland St., Newton, Manchester. Grave Ref. A. 8.

MAIN, Private, HERBERT GLADSTONE, 245329, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment.
Killed in action at Marteville 12 September 1918. Age 20. Son of Edwin Arthur and Ada
Jane Main, of 59, Ley St., Ilford, Essex. Grave Ref. A. 2.

MARTIN, Private, W H, 352914, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Age 35. Son of Margaret Martin, of 22, Bredbury St., Cowhill, Oldham, and the late
Joseph Martin. Grave Ref. A. 1.

MARTINDALE, Private, P, 44816, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918.
Husband of Mrs. M. J. Martindale, of 224, Shelly Rd., Preston, Lancs. Grave Ref. A. 2.

I hope I've not confused everyone.

Neil
neil
its pte gill not pte martin that was killed on 13th,see original grave report

mack

Offline PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2019, 12:52:08 PM »
Tim Bell,

Tim, as a matter of interest what route did you follow to look for St.Quentin Chapel?       Incidentally, where is the sergeant commemorated?   Best regards, PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: timberman
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2019, 02:35:15 PM »
hiya Philip


it should have been sgt 8060 herbert,elliott brown.55 huxley ave,cheetham aged 27,he was found along with pte 50994 fred.bean of the 16th manchesters in the same location,both killed on 21st march 1918,ID discs were found on both soldiers

tims enquiry has got me thinking,i wonder if pte bean was also in the 90th TM battery,a reference said that pte bean was killed at savy

mack
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 03:04:21 PM by mack »

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2019, 04:43:50 PM »
Sorry Mack
 
I did say I was a bit confused, I was adding 2+2 and getting 5
I've attached the  original grave report just for extra information on this topic.

Neil

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: timberman
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2019, 08:23:04 AM »
Tim Bell,

Tim, as a matter of interest what route did you follow to look for St.Quentin Chapel?       Incidentally, where is the sergeant commemorated?   Best regards, PhilipG.
Confirmed as Sgt H E Brown.  He is buried Chappelle British Cemetery, Holnon. We didn't actuallly enter St Quentin Wood, just walked up into the clearing where Bert and Fred Bean were buried. 

I agree with Mack.  We know that Bert Brown was also killed near Roupy, so it's likely Fred was in Bert's Trench Mortar section. We know Lt Goldsmith found Bert’a body, but I still don’t know if he was buried by the  British or Germans.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 09:18:59 AM by Tim Bell »
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Offline PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2019, 09:41:01 AM »
Tim Bell,

Tim, thank you.   I trust you found time to visit Francilly-Selency and the Manchesters' memorial.   PhilipG.

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: timberman
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2019, 03:57:38 PM »
Chappelle British Cemetery is named after a wayside shrine.  I wonder if this relates to the St Quentin Wood Chapel, close to the place so many of the men were originally buried.  I can't confirm this from CWGC records.
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