Author Topic: timberman  (Read 2096 times)

Offline mack

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timberman
« on: August 22, 2019, 07:36:06 PM »
hiya neil
do you know which village sgt mark fisher attacked which resulted in him being awarded the DCM,the only help I can give is that when he was awarded a bar to his military medal on 21st October 1918,he already had the DCM,sometime between his first MM award for actions between 8th+12th august and his second MM award for actions in late august early september,he won the DCM

mack
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 08:25:52 PM by mack »

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2019, 09:48:47 PM »
Hi Mack

Towards the end of August there was a lot of fighting around
Vermandovillers, Ablaincourt and Cizancourt so it is possible that he was
awarded the DCM for this action.
He was reported on the 4th of September in the War Diaries
as getting his first MM.
On the 12th the Battalion attacked the St Quentin wood,
so this is a possibility.
For the rest of September the Battalion were mainly  in Billets.
On the 1st Of October the Battalion attacked Magny-La-Fosse
and Swiss Cottage.
His DCM was reported in the War Diaries on October the 8th.

Going by his citation it seems more likely the action of the 27th / 28th August or the
1st of October fits the description given in the Diaries.
I think it is the action in August that he was awarded the DCM for though.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. His platoon was on the flank of his company, which was far in advance of the troops on the right, and was the first to reach the objective, in spite of heavy machine gun and shell fire. His action materially assisted in the capture of a village, and he inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy from the position he had reached. Throughout he displayed high qualities of leadership and tireless energy.

Neil
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 12:49:30 PM by Timberman »

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2019, 10:17:07 PM »
The following is taken from the The Men behind the Medals.

A brave man.

Mark Fisher


Mark was born in 1884 in Bath, Somerset. His father was called Alfred and his mother was Sarah. He had 2 older brothers: Alfred and George, and a younger brother called Albert.

In 1891 the family lived at 2 Edward's Place in Bath. Alfred worked as a labourer for a mason. Ten years later the family had broken up. Mark and Albert were living with Harry Oborne and his family at 6 Highway Buildings in Bath. Mark worked as an errand boy.

Between then and 1914 Mark moved to the Manchester area. By the time the First World War broke out in August he had enough of a connection to the city to want to join the 8th City Battalion that was being formed by its workers. He enlisted on the 30th December 1914 and was given the service number 22248. This unit became the 23rd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment and Mark was assigned to XII Platoon in C Company.

Mark and the 23rd Battalion arrived in France during January 1916. We don't know much about what he did during his time in France. The 23rd Battalion served in the Somme Offensive between July and November 1916, seeing combat at Guillemont, Trones Wood and Morlancourt. They also fought around Arras during October.

During 1917 they served in Ribecourt and Ponttruet before moving to Belgium and taking part in the Passchendaele Offensive that October. The 23rd Battalion was disbanded in February 1918 due to a reorganisation of the Army that aimed to have more soldiers in fewer battalions, rather than fewer soldiers in more battalions. Mark was one of 150 men sent to join the 2nd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment.

The 2nd Battalion fought to stop the German Spring Offensive of March and April 1918, and then took part in the advance to victory which began that August. By this time Mark held the rank of Sergeant.

During the fighting in August and September Mark carried out 3 acts of bravery that were recognised by the award of gallantry medals. We don't know exactly when or where these acts took place. He was awarded the Military Medal first, during the Battle of Amiens between the 8th and 12th August, although we don't know what he did to earn it. The award was published in the London Gazette on the 24th January 1919.

Later in August Mark was again awarded the Military Medal. He was given a Bar to his original award. This was published in the London Gazette on the 14th May 1919.

Mark's third award was the most prestigious. He was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal between then and the end of September. The citation for this award was published in the London Gazette on the 5th December 1918:

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. His platoon was on the flank of his company, which was far in advance of the troops on the right, and was the first to reach the objective, in spite of heavy machine gun and shell fire. His action materially assisted in the capture of a village, and he inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy from the position he had reached. Throughout he displayed high qualities of leadership and tireless energy.

The war ended on the 11th November 1918 and Mark had returned to the UK by May 1919. He had been injured once during his time overseas. He was transferred to the Class Z Reserve on the 16th May and returned to civilian life. If fighting had broken out again he could have been called back to the Army. It never did so the Class Z Reserve was disbanded in March 1920.

The rest of Mark's life remains a mystery. His medals were donated to the Museum of the Manchester Regiment in August 1961, by which time Mark had died.

Neil

Offline mack

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Re: timberman
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 11:45:16 AM »
I don't think that mark ever lived in Manchester,its only a guess on my part,but its based on quite solid evidence,i believe he went to Manchester to enlist where nobody knew him because of a trivial conviction for stealing a pair of boots in 1911,he would not have been able to enlist in his home town because of this,he was sentenced to 7 days hard labour in Brecon gaol for his misdemeanour,he was absent from the 1911 census because the census was taken on the evenings of 2nd and 3rd april,mark was in custody on 2nd april and sentenced on 3rd april.

mark married his sweetheart annie,matilda white in 1921 in his hometown of bath.

mark and annie later lived at 20 st.james rd,watford,he died on 27th august 1953,annie died in 1961,which is the year that his medals were donated to the manchesters museum

born 12-2-1884

during my years of research,i have come across quite a few manchesters who had been in some sort of trouble,and ended up being warriors like mark,they proved that courage isnt the sole property of just the good guys

mack



Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 12:23:43 PM »
Hi Mack

7 days hard labour for a pair of shoes worth 12.5 p in today money.
He should not of taken them but we don't know the reason.

In the 1939 register I found interesting
Still at 20 St James Road.
Mark Fisher paper coater.
Annie Fisher unpaid domestic duties.
Rosina Gilbert born 30/04/1876 paid domestic servant.
Jane Higgins born 02/04/1864 retired.

The house is still there.

Click on the pictures to make them bigger

Neil

Online PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2019, 12:52:22 PM »
Timberman, 

May I, please, refer to Reply No. 1 and the line "on the 12th the battalion attacked the St. Quentin Wood".        Have you any info as to the name of this wood?     PhilipG.

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2019, 02:30:16 PM »
Philip

The battalion on the 12th were at Marteville directly between
the 2nd Bn and St Quentin was a very large wood.
In your book you call it Holnon Wood and I think that
this is the wood that the Officer writing up the war diaries
called St Quentin wood.

I've added the 12th entry of the war diaries that give details of the action
on the 12th.

Click on the picture to make it bigger

Neil
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 05:53:48 PM by Timberman »

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: timberman
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 04:57:53 PM »
I was at St Quentin Wood last month looking at the original burial location of Sgt H E Brown of 17th Bttn Att 90th TMB.    As Neil says, it's a big wood. The trench maps refer to Holnon Wood in the southern section - notably further from Holnon and south of the railway.  Sgt Payne was buried in a clearing near St Quentin Chapel, which I didn't find and the former track isn't there either.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 08:16:46 AM by Tim Bell »
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2019, 05:52:25 PM »
Thanks Tim

I found it. I had been looking for this but could never find it.

Philip
It's north of Holnon Wood on the trench map.
From Marteville  it is East and is called St Quentin Wood.
Because I could not find it I thought the officer had just given it that name.

Neil
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:24:06 PM by Timberman »

Offline charlie

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Re: timberman
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2019, 09:38:43 PM »
Mack, 12th September  ;D

The officer filling in the War Diary obviously got his woods mixed up, the objectives given in the Operational Order are firmly in Holnon Wood.

Charlie

Offline Timberman

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Re: timberman
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2019, 10:14:47 PM »
Mack

As we have found before the War Diaries are not always right.
Like the position of the guns at Manchester Hill in 1917.

These are what I have down for the 12th.

TREFCON BRITISH CEMETERY, CAULAINCOURT, Aisne, France
 
ARBUTHNOT, Private, J, 53231, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Son of Mrs. V. Arbuthnot, of 39, Rumford St., Bridgeton, Glasgow. Grave Ref. A. 7.
 
ASHTON, Private, HERBERT, 351072, "B" Coy. 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Age 24. Son of Mrs. Selina Neale, of 66, Bradgate St., Ashton-underLyne, Lancs. Grave Ref. A. 3.
 
BANYARD, Private, PERCY, 44824, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Age 20. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Banyard, of Upperthorpe, Sheffield. Grave Ref. A. 1.
 
ENTWISTLE, Private, W, 251935, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Son of Mr. R. Entwistle, of 615, Halliwell Rd., Bolton. Grave Ref. A. 2.

GILL, Private, J, 302950, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Brother of Mr. J. Gill, of 10, Holland St., Newton, Manchester. Grave Ref. A. 8.
 
MAIN, Private, HERBERT GLADSTONE, 245329, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. Killed in action at Marteville 12 September 1918. Age 20. Son of Edwin Arthur and Ada Jane Main, of 59, Ley St., Ilford, Essex. Grave Ref. A. 2.
 
MARTIN, Private, W H, 352914, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Age 35. Son of Margaret Martin, of 22, Bredbury St., Cowhill, Oldham, and the late Joseph Martin. Grave Ref. A. 1.
 
MARTINDALE, Private, P, 44816, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 12 September 1918. Husband of Mrs. M. J. Martindale, of 224, Shelly Rd., Preston, Lancs. Grave Ref. A. 2.

Thanks Charlie

At least I now know were St Quentin wood is.
Not to sure how many trees would be still standing at this stage of the war.

Neil
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 07:35:37 PM by Timberman »

Online PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2019, 06:48:32 AM »
Timberman,

Very many thanks. Great work.   PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: timberman
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2019, 09:58:18 AM »
hiya neil
theres a eighth man to add to your list,pte 270089 William,john fisk,he died of wounds,the date on his cross was 12th august,the CWGC says he died on 13th,if he died on 13th,he wouldn't have been buried with the others,probably not even in the same cemetery,this lad must have died before they got him out,thats the only way he could have ended up being buried where he is

ptes banyard are buried together in A1
ptes martindale,main and entwistle in A2
pte ashton A3
pte fisk A4

ptes Arbuthnot and gill are in A7+A8,pte gills cross said kia 13th august,CWGC says 12th august

mack

Online PhilipG

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Re: timberman
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2019, 10:37:57 AM »
I wonder if someone would care to check my observations.   I am referring to Timberman's reply No. 8 and in particular to the trench map showing St. Quentin Wood.  Today Holnon Wood stretches from the D 1029 (ex N29), almost to the new motorway - the A29-E44.   Dividing Holnon Wood is a long absolutely straight road running from the outskirts of St. Quentin itself westwards and ending in Vermand.   This road is known as Ancien Voie Romaine.    Turning again to Timberman's map, this ancient roman highway leads straight through St. Quentin Wood into the town itself.   I would suggest that such importance would lead to the need to distinguish it from Holnon Wood which lay the other side of the railway and the name "St. Quentin Wood " seemed appropriate to the map maker.

It seems too, that the Roman road I have indicated runs through Squares 6,5, 4, & 3 of the Timberman map.    I would value any comments.   PhilipG.                                 

Offline mack

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Re: timberman
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2019, 10:53:25 AM »
Mack, 12th September  ;D

The officer filling in the War Diary obviously got his woods mixed up, the objectives given in the Operational Order are firmly in Holnon Wood.

Charlie
thanks Charlie
ive deleted it so as not to confuse the thread.

mack