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1899 - 1902 / Re: Researching Tips
« Last post by mack on November 19, 2021, 03:13:31 PM »
all these officers and men have already been researched by our very knowledgable research team,we have the best manchester researchers around on our forum and they know their stuff
the info inludes name,rank,number,occupation,age,residence and place and date of death of those who died

unfortunately,they are in the research section in the moderators dept

1914 - 1918 / Re: David Redford 2838, 5th battn and MGC
« Last post by mack on November 17, 2021, 08:08:33 PM »
david redford was not a POW nor was he gassed in the war

enlisted 16-11-14 2/5th battalion
31-7-15 1/5th batt
3-8-15 embarked from england
22-8-15 gallipoli joined D.coy
11-9-15 sent to 11th CCS with cellulitis in leg
16-1-16 left mudros in a advance party on HMT marsh to alexander
15-2-16 attatched to MGC
14-3-16 attatched to 127th MG coy transferred 18-3-16
23-4-16 in hospital suez abcess right leg
25-5-16 re-attested for further service
1-3-17 embarked alexander
9-3-17 disembarked marseilles
14-2-18 in 1/3rd ELFA injured foot
rejoined batt 4-3-18
1-7-18 1/2nd field ambulance with influenza
3-7-18 sent to australian gen hospital rouen
4-9-18 posted to 42nd batt MGC
19-3-19 embarked to england for demob at prees heath
resided 253 bag lane,atherton
occupation collier

1914 - 1918 / Re: David Redford 2838, 5th battn and MGC
« Last post by charlie on November 17, 2021, 07:47:49 PM »
Thanks for your interesting posts Fumanchu and Gingerfreak hopefully Redford may read them.

Mustard gas was first used by the German Army on 12/13th July 1917. The strength of the German army for Operation Michael was approximately 950.000.

1914 - 1918 / Re: David Redford 2838, 5th battn and MGC
« Last post by FuManchu18 on November 17, 2021, 06:04:47 PM »
Hi redford457,

Your grandfather was part of a draft of 118 men when he arrived on 22nd August. At the end of September, only 68 of those men were still serving with the battalion - only three had been killed, but almost all the rest had gone sick, as the major fighting was over but Gallipoli was a very unsanitary place and illness was almost unavoidable. By the end of October, only 23 of the 118 remained.

Statistically speaking, chances are that unless your grandfather was very lucky he was one of the ones who went sick in those first months after arrival, though clearly he recovered from it well.
1914 - 1918 / Re: David Redford 2838, 5th battn and MGC
« Last post by Gingerfreak on November 17, 2021, 04:58:24 PM »
Dear Redford457

Your grandfather has a service record on Ancestry. The writing below was completed before I found it online. I have left out the details in this write up so you can find out the information yourself and I don't steal the moment.

 He joined the 2/5th on 16th of November 1914. The 1/5th had already sailed for Egypt in the September. The 1/5th, 2/5th where classed as Territorial Force Units, not regular army. Thier contracts were different. A man could sign up for 1, 2, 3 or 4 years. Most men chose 4 years service. Once this service was finished, the man did not have to sign on the dotted line again, unless he wanted to. This changed later (see below).

Territorial service started at the age of 17, though some 'Boy soldiers' joined from the age of 14 upwards. The purpose of the Territorial Force was to provide home defence. The men had to agree to serve overseas and sign a document stating this.

When the 1/5th left for Egypt, a nucleus of men stayed behind. Some, because of age, some because of illness, some because of family circumstances. These men formed the training team and the 2/5th. The 2/5th formed up at the drill hall in Wigan. Once training began the 2/5th moved to Crowborough in Sussex. The camp still exists and the training area is in Pippingford Park. Its still a military training area, filled with hills, heathland, woods and waterways. Volunteers from the 2/5th formed replacement/reinforcement drafts for the 1/5th. Men were sent to Egypt and onto Gallipoli. Your grandfather's medal card states 2b (Gallipoli) and is dated 22 Aug 1915. He was part of a third draft of replacements.  He arrived in Gallipoli after the two main attacks carried out by the Allied forces on 4th June and 7th August 1915. 

The service number 48009 is for the Machine Gun Corps. There are two possibilities of why he was posted into the Machine Gun Corps.
a) The most likely, he was part of the machine gun teams/cpy within the 1/5th. After the early battles of WW1, it was found that the number of machine guns was too low. There was a need to increase the number of machine guns within the Battalions. In the war diaries the machine guns are sourced by stripping out machine guns from the Navies Armoured cars.  An Army Order came out in 1915 - the formation of the Machine Gun Corps. All company machine gunners were transfered to the Unit.
b) He may have been wounded and returned to the UK. If he had he would have been at a depot and may have volunteered to serve with the MGC.

The MGC were a Brigade or Divisional asset. This is at a higher level than a single battalion. In the beginning ,the MGC companies had 10-12 guns each. They were employed in a similar fashion as artillery. They set thier guns at an angle, firing rounds behind the german lines and preventing reinforcements from reaching the front line. The targets were chosen by the Brigade Commander, Divisional Commander etc.

Mustard Gas - Used on the Western front. The first Mustard Gas attack by the Germans was in 1917. Therefore, your grandfather was a gas victim after that date. If he returned to his unit before 21st March 1918, he would have been involved with the German Attack on the British Front in 1918. Operation Micheal saw millions of german soldiers, led by groups of stormtroopers attack the British line. Thousands of Britich soldiers were captured. Your grandfather may have been one of them. 
POW - The Red Cross websites can help you with finding this out. You will need to use his MGC service number.

End of service - renelisting as a regular. Up until January 1916, if a Territorial Serviceman came to the end of his contract, he was under no obligation to stay and the army was not obliged to keep him. His 'Terms Of Enlistment' would naturally come to an end, and he went home. On 27th January 1916 the government of the time passed the Military Service Act. This was implemented in March 1916. This brought in conscription. First all single men between 19 and 35 were conscripted, then married men. For the Territorial force, this meant that once the terms of thier engagement came to an end, they could not go home. They were automatically put onto a Short Service/Duration of the war contract. They were still technically Territorial Force soldiers but under regular army administration.

Hope this helps.
Hello / Re: Help needed - 5th battalion Manchester Regiment ( Wigan Territorials )
« Last post by Gingerfreak on November 17, 2021, 04:04:59 PM »
As Pete has said, there is one William Ince that served with the 1/5th Battalion. This is the information I have on him.
He was born in 1884. He enlisted at the age of 19 as a territorial in 1913 at Wigan Drill Hall. With all probability he would have signed on for four years. That was the most common terms of service, there were options to take 1,2,3 or 4. Four years was the most common length of time.

He would have attended two camps. One at Canarvon and the other a year later at Aldershot. His early war service number was 1325. In 1917 the TF were issued with 6 figure numbers. Men who served with the 1/5th, 2/5th and 3/5th all had numbers from 20000 - 250000.

His parents lived at 19 Douglas Street, Newtown, Pemberton. Just outside Wigan. He was a collier by trade, employed in the Garswood Hall Collieries in Bryn. He was on of the 'Original' members of the Battalion who travelled to Egypt. They left the UK on the 10th September 1914 and went to Egypt, arrivind on the 24th September 1914. Some medal cards have these dates written on them by mistake. They spent the next six months training and carrying out guard duty.
He left Egypt on the 3rd May 1915. The battalion travelled to Gallipoli on the Derflinger, or as it was nicknamed 'The Dirtflinger'. The battalion landed on W beach on 06 May 1915. This is thier disembarkation date. He was wounded in the shoulder (Right, rear) on or around the 4th June 1915. This was a Corps sized frontal assault across the whole penninsula. The task was to attack the Turkish lines and hold them. He was evacuated from Gallipoli to the hospital in Malta.

He was reported as 'Wounded' in the Wigan Observer on 27th July 1915,pg3. There is a photograph of William with the press cutting. He is also reported as a casualty in the Wigan Observer on 31st July 1915 pg8.

He returned to the unit and continued to serve with them until the wars end. He was disembodied on the 15th January 1919.

1914 - 1918 / Re: Possibly a Wigan soldier.
« Last post by Gingerfreak on November 17, 2021, 12:36:26 PM »
This is a possiblity, but it maybe a rabbit hole.
There is one James Shaw in my database. 1/5th Battalion, Manchester Regiment.
Enlisted on 19th October 1915. Service Number 4222.
He was with the battalion in 1917, issued Service No: 201527.
He was discharged on 24th June 1918 under KR 392 and the Army Order 2B ii.
A.O. Para 2 - (b) Those who, having served as soldiers and still being of military age, have been discharged under the conditions set forth at (i) and (ii) in (a)
A.O.Para 2 - (i) After service overseas in the armed forces of the crown, on account of disabledment or ill health caused otherwise than by misconduct
His SWB No is 428343 in Ledger H/1100/1.
He age is given as 26. This is roughly the right age.
He has two pension cards. He applied for a disability pension. The address is given as 4 Engine Fold, Lamberhead Green, Pemberton.
There are several 'James Shaw' s listed in the 1911 Census. The ones listed below are the closest in age and locality. Both men are colliers by trade.
James Shaw - Living at 49 Crossland Street, Swinton - Wigan. This is 1.7 miles from Lamberhead Green
James Shaw - Living at 20 Edge Green Lane, Golbourne - Wigan. This is 8 miles from Lamberhead Green.
The last James Shaw is 21 years of age, this makes his birth year as 1890, he resided at 241 Billinge Road, Pemberton, Wigan.
I don't believe that there are any newspaper articles available for this man. He may be listed on a casualty list in the Times after March 1917.

As I've said, this could be the wrong person, and without any other information, searching is like disappearing down a rabbit hole.

Good Luck.

1899 - 1902 / Researching Tips
« Last post by Gingerfreak on November 16, 2021, 11:56:19 PM »
As part of my research I've transcribed the Boer War Medal Rolls for the 1st -4th Volunteer Service Companies.
These are some of the things I've found. Hopefully the information may help others.

1. If you are going to carry out research and intend to use a Geneology site, I'd advise you to use Ancestry. FindMyPast have transcriptions, not the actual document. Ancestry have scanned the documents and you can download them to your computer if you wish.
2. Don't try and search for your ancestor in the Boer War casualty lists, unless you know the exact details. To find individuals & thier units, its been easier and quicker to search through the UK Military Campaign Medal & Award Rolls 1793-1949. Type in 'South Africa' in the country and 'Manchester' not Manchester Regiment into the Regiment. If you type in 'Manchester Regiment' it will miss out the Volunteer Active Service Units.
3. If in doubt, use an Officers surname instead, such as 'Darlington' and if your relative served in a volunteer active service unit, the volunteer active service unit will come up in the search.

4. The Boer War was fought in three phases. This effects what clasps the men would be entitled to wear.

1 - Open Warfare- conventional force v conventional force
1a) Under Gen Buller, a multitude of set backs all before the end of December 1899. There are no Volunteers in this section. You only need to search from Oct 1899 to Dec 1899 if your researching a regular.
1b) The change of Leadership - Field Marshall Lord Roberts and his Chief of Staff Brigadier (or Lt) General Herbert Horatio Kitchener, one of the Lt Col in charge of 7th Brigade was Lt Col Ian Hamilton. This change of leadership brought boatloads of reinforcements with them. If your man is in the  1st Volunteer Battalion he arrived with this group:
1st Vol Batt - Disembarked in Cape Town on 9th March 1900 on the Steam Ship Majestic.
In this phase the volunteers had to force march and engage the Boer forces. The combined British forces pushed the Boers back to Pretoria. The last battle was held there and the Boers lost. The 1st Volunteers returned to the UK on 26th April 1900.

The 1st Volunteers  had 116 men in total. There is a main register that contains all of the men and highlights the clasps. This is the only Volunteer Active Service Unit to then divide the men into thier individual battalions. ie all the Wigan men into one list etc.
All of the service Numbers are four digits and start with 70 or 71.
They are entilted to wear: Queen's South Africa Medal with Belfast, Natal, South Africa 1901 or Transvaal, Natal, South Africa 1901 clasps. Dependant on which regular Battalion they were with.

Phase 2 - Mobile warfare and fighting guerilla tactics
Not all of the Boer forces capitulated. A large group called the Bitteinders, led by capable leaders such as Jan Christiaan Smuts and Kroos De La Ray decided to hold out until the bitter end. In this phase the Service battalions were part of columns that chased the Boers over the Transvaal (now Gauteng). Under Kitchener's orders, the British Army carried out its scorched earth policy, burning farms, crops and driving off livestock. This effectively stopped the Boers from resupplying. The construction of Blockhouses and barbed wire fences resticted the movements of the Boers.
The 2nd Volunteers and 3rd Volunteers were in South Africa during this time, continuing to persue the Boer forces and carrying out Guard duty in the block houses.
2nd Volunteers where 'K' Battalion Manchester Regiment - Thier four digit numbers start with 71etc and end with 82etc. These men are listed in alphabetical order.
They are entilted to wear: Queen's South Africa Medal with Cape Colony,Orange Free State,Transvaal  South Africa 1901 & South Africa 1902

3rd Volunteers  'M' Company - Thier four digit set starts with 82 and end with 83 etc, unless they are a SNCO (Csgt, CSM etc) thier numbers are much lower starting with 2etc.
They are entilted to wear: Queen's South Africa Medal with Cape Colony,Orange Free State,  South Africa 1901 & South Africa 1902 Except for men who trasfered to the Johannesburg Police. They transfered on the 24th August 1901 & were not issued the 'South Africa 1902' clasp.
These men have been put into an order of rank and in alphabetical order. All Officers and NCO's first then Drummers, then the Private Soldiers.

Phase 3: Refugees no longer processed by military units, Boers capitulate - Guard duty.

4th Volunteers - Thier 4 digit set starts with 83etc and ends with 84etc. SNCO's start with 5etc. The HQ element is completed first, in order of rank, the Private soldiers are listed in numerical order, not alphabetical.
They are entilted to wear: Queen's South Africa Medal with Cape Colony, South Africa 1902 clasps

From the service records I've read through (Other ranks only), The Service records are all 'Short Service', not Territorial and the service numbers were issued to the men for the South African campaign only. Once they were returned to the UK they were demobilised and returned to their original  Volunteer Battallion.

I hope this helps people out or at least points them in the right direction.

History for std 6 -10 Joubert & Blitz 1974
Volunteer Infantry of Ashton Under Lynne , Bonner R, 2005

Non Commissioned Graves / Re: Pte 3908 John McChale / McHale – 12th Bn
« Last post by mack on November 16, 2021, 05:55:53 PM »
buried phillips park cemeter. D.RC.197

Non Commissioned Graves / Pte 3908 John McChale / McHale – 12th Bn
« Last post by Tim Bell on November 15, 2021, 06:41:55 PM »
John McChale had been a miller when he enlisted in 12th Bn on 24/08/1914. He was discharged inefficient from No 1 Coy on 14/11/1914. He had a gastric ulcer, with no comment on consequence of service.
John died on 29/12/1914 – cause unknown, aged 27.  His widow Mrs E A McChale lived at 37 Baguley Street, Newton Heath, later 13 Wragley Street, Queen’s Road.
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