The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 11:59:22 AM

Title: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 11:59:22 AM
Many thanks for posting this and the original link to the red cross lists.  My grandfather was captured at Hargicourt 21.3.1918 and is listed in the IRC files.  His quote about what happened that day is in Middlebrook's book, page 230 - private C H Martin - I believe this to be my grandfather Charles Harry Martin, who we remember being interviewed.  The IRC records show he was at Gustrow camp.  According to official records he was released - however he actually escaped when the guard was relaxed towards the end of the war and made his way back to France (with at least one other POW we think).

I wonder if anyone can enlighten me however.  The Manchester Regiment records show he was in 21st Batallion, A Company Platoon 3.  Reading about events it looks like 21st Batallion was in Italy in March 2018, but we know he was captured at Hargicourt.  The IRC records list him as 2/6 Manchester - did he get reallocated?

Many thanks!
Title: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: Tim Bell on January 04, 2015, 01:32:07 PM
18656 C H Martin in the Book of Honour has a very early number in the 21st Battalion allocation and it's a little odd that this man is not featured in the Medal Roll for 1914/15 Star.
Your Charles Harry Martin's Medal Index Card and Roll confirm no receipt of the Star.  The BWM/VM Roll shows him in the heart of the batch of numbers allocated to 2/6th Bttn.

Pure speculation, but I wonder if illness or injury meant C H Martin was discharged from 21st Bttn and he later re-enlisted in 2/6th Bttn.  I may be wrong, but I usually see Service Battalion men retaining their numbers if this had been a straightforward transfer.  It's also possible the 21st Bttn man is a different bloke who was just discharged with no Medal entitlement.

Hopefully someone can find some real facts to enlighten us.

Tim
Title: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 03:09:00 PM
Hi CHMrels

Welcome to the forum.

If his number is 18656?

On his medal index card it says,

Charles H Martin
Man Reg 18656
Labour Corps 662919

He went to France 10/11/1915
and was entitled to
1915 Star
Victory and British Medals

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
Hi there and thank you.

The IRC POW list lists him as 2/6 Manchester and I know that's definitely him as it has is DOB and home address.

The Manchester Regiment details I viewed via FindMyPast does give him 18656 (21st Bn A Co Plat3).

On the National Roll his details have the number Z11551 after the typed synopsis.

On the medal record card his service number is also 18656 with a labour corps No of 662919 (though I don't know what that means!)

Where can I view the BWM/VM roll?

I don't think he was injured or ill as far as the family are aware.  The only thing that has been mentioned is that he may have fibbed about his age and joined up a month or so shy of his 18th birthday - could that have got him moved around?

We're trying to ID him on the regimental group photo but that's proving tricky!

Thanks again  :)
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 06:25:57 PM
PS: On the photo list of names C H Martin is 18656 also.
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 06:52:10 PM
Hi
I was just checking with Tim saying he was not entitled
to the 1914/15 star?

I've noticed several EX POW's are listed as
transferred into the Labour Corps.


The following is from the Long Long Trail site.

The Labour Corps is formed

Formed in January 1917, the Corps grew to some 389,900 men
(more than 10% of the total size of the Army) by the Armistice.
Of this total, around 175,000 were working in the United Kingdom
and the rest in the theatres of war. The Corps was manned by
officers and other ranks who had been medically rated below the
"A1" condition needed for front line service. Many were returned
wounded. Labour Corps units were often deployed for work within
 range of the enemy guns, sometimes for lengthy periods. In April
1917, a number of infantry battalions were transferred to the
Corps. The Labour Corps absorbed the 28 ASC Labour Companies
between February and June 1917. Labour Corps Area Employment
Companies were formed in 1917 for salvage work, absorbing the
Divisional Salvage Companies. In the crises of March and April 1918
on the Western Front, Labour Corps units were used as emergency
infantry. The Corps always suffered from its treatment as something
of a second class organisation: for example, the men who died are
commemorated under their original regiment, with Labour Corps
being secondary. Researching men of the Corps is made extra difficult
by this, as is the fact that few records remain of the daily activities and
locations of Corps units.


The rolls are kept at National Archives at Kew
Although the can be see on Ancestry at a cost
Someone may be able to help you with this on here.

I have the rolls for the 2nd Battalion and other people have
the rolls for other Battalions.

Good luck with your research

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 07:01:04 PM
To help

The roll numbers are

Victory and British roll number

 Roll LC/101 B271  Page 27623

1914/15 Star

Roll LC/63c3   Page 109/61

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 07:12:44 PM
Thank you so much - I'll try to have a look at the rolls.

He was captured 21st March 1918 and the POW record says 2/6 Manchester so he must have moved from the 21st Batt. some months (at least) before then.  By the time he escaped the war was pretty much over but we don't know when or how he got back to the UK.

He was also interviewed as a survivor of WW1 and WWII (he was with the volunteer fire service in WWII) which was recorded to be used on a radio broadcast, possibly around 1980, but sadly no one alive to recall the details.
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: kingo on January 04, 2015, 08:01:29 PM
Labour Corp 1914/15 Star Roll Page 109/61
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 09:02:00 PM
Thank you so much Kingo.

I'm a little concerned now though ::)
The entry on this roll is for Charles "Herbert" whereas my grandfather was Charles Harry (not Henry either).  
Need to somehow cross check that 18656 is Charles Harry...........
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 09:13:37 PM
these are the only C H Martins and C Martins in the
Manchester regiment.

Charles H Martin   Manchester Regiment   34691
Charles H Martin   Manchester Regiment, Labour Corps   18656, 662919
Charles H Martin   Manchester Regiment   252062
      
Charles Martin   Manchester Regiment   1858
Charles Martin   Manchester Regiment   77197
Charles Martin   Manchester Regiment   15586

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 09:23:37 PM
Ah now that helps.........

On the ICRC entry, which I know IS my grandfather because of the address and DOB, the number with his name is 252062.

Is there a way to find out which battalion, group and platoon 252062 was with?!

Might explain why we couldn't pick him out on the photo of the CH Martin with the 21st Batt., if in fact he'd been with 2/6 all along  ;D

And would of course mean he didn't switch battalions.........

Also means I've got the wrong medal card transcript......... ho hum...........
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 09:36:53 PM
He's only entitled to the Victory and British medals

Roll number
Roll H/1/104B32 Page 6600

The group photos are for the Pals Battalions
not sure that there is one for the 2/6th Battalion.

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 09:40:37 PM
Thank you again.  Are you able to rename the thread 252062 C H Martin  :-[
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 09:43:31 PM
No problem

A little bit about the 2/6th on the main site

http://www.themanchesters.org/batt%20index.htm

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 04, 2015, 09:51:47 PM
Thank you.

We're sure that our Charles Harry is the C H Martin in Middlebrook's book however as the family remember him being interviewed and there's a copy of the book that he was given somewhere in the family. 

We might have a look at the Manchester 6th book too, now that we know he wasn't in the 21st  ;D
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 09:57:41 PM
If you do  :)

In John Hartley book on the 6th Battalion
at the top of page 217 is the quote made by Charles H Martin
in the Kaiser's battle by Martin Middlebrook.

Timberman
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 05, 2015, 09:19:51 AM
Thanks.

Would anyone know if there are full transcripts of the interviews for Middlebrook's book anywhere?

Also is there a way to trace which group and platoon 252062 would have been with?

It would be great to pass on as much as possible to his daughter who, needless to say, is now quite elderly!

Thanks again.
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: mack on January 05, 2015, 10:30:08 AM
18656[662919] c.h martin was Charles,herbert martin of 32 redvers st,ardwick,he joined the labour corps on 2-12-18 after being wounded in the left arm on 2-11-17,previously wounded in right leg on 17-7-16,he died of TB in baguley sanatorium on 8-10-1924

it was 252062 Charles,harry martin who was interviewed by middlebrook

mack ;D
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 05, 2015, 11:17:05 AM
Thanks for confirming the Middlebrook claim to fame  ;D

252062 is definitely my relative and not 18656 who I'd managed to merge him with in error!

CHMrels
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: Tim Bell on January 05, 2015, 05:50:22 PM
Sorry I didn't spot the Labour Corps MIC and Medal Rolls for the other C H Martin.  Don't know how I missed this....

I'm also seeking an original M Middlebrook recording.  I have a second recording from Radio 4 in 1976 when MM also interviewed Paddy Kennedy (Our World War) http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80013387 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80013387) and my Grandad http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80013380 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80013380).  The audio library at IWM is great, but the search is a bit of challenge.  The nearest I could find for your research appears to be http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80031399 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80031399)

The Liddle collection in Leeds contains some of MM's notes and archive (including a copy of my Grandad's) and may have notes from Charles. I can see his name here but don't know what it means http://library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections-explore/29049/middlebrook_somme_1918?selection=Liddle%20Collection&query=Manchester%20Regiment%20Martin&browseQuery=Search&collectionGroup=Liddle%20Collection&resultID=0785&port=45000&resultOffset=3 (http://library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections-explore/29049/middlebrook_somme_1918?selection=Liddle%20Collection&query=Manchester%20Regiment%20Martin&browseQuery=Search&collectionGroup=Liddle%20Collection&resultID=0785&port=45000&resultOffset=3)

Otherwise good luck with seeking other recordings.  If you do find the recording handle with care, particularly with his daughter.  I'm not sure I did the right thing sharing the CD with my Dad and Auntie.
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 05, 2015, 07:20:44 PM
Thank you - you've made impressive progress! And word of warning noted with thanks too.

Following your lead I can find quite a few names in the IWM archives for the Manchester Regiment (audio files) but my grandfather doesn't seem to be included there.

Thank for the Leeds Liddle link - his name on there as you say.  I wonder if they respond to written requests for copies, or if there are any written transcripts?!
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: Tim Bell on January 05, 2015, 08:19:35 PM
My Dad visited Leeds for me and found the notes we already had via our cousin. I suggest you email the Library and ask them these questions.

If you find recordings or more MM notes, please keep an eye open for Pt AA Bell

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: 252062 C H Martin
Post by: CHMrels on January 07, 2015, 09:30:14 PM
Now that we've cleared up the confusion, would anyone have details (or can direct me to) of when my C H Martin (252062) would have joined the 6th Batt. and when he would have first been sent to France?  Are there details of platoon members for the 6th Batt?

Thank you  :)