The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: PhilipG on February 06, 2014, 02:54:16 PM

Title: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 06, 2014, 02:54:16 PM
On 2nd July 1916 at 6.30. p.m. Lt. I.C.MacDonell (Lord Strathcona's Horse & RFC). together with 2nd Lt. H.A.Williamson (Manchester Regt. & RFC), his Observer, "took off" in their BE2c aircraft No.2654 of No. 9  Squadron with orders to co-operate with British artillery batteries whilst airborne over the Somme battlefield.    Unfortunately, they were forced into combat with two enemy aircraft east of Bapaume and their aircraft set on fire, there being some suggestion that one of the German aircraft had fired a rocket.  Both officers were killed and having no known grave their names are engraved on the panels of the Flying Services Memorial in Arras.

2nd Lt. Williamson MID, is on my roll of those officers in the Manchester Regt. who chose later in  their military career to transfer to the RFC or RAF.   Unfortunately, I have been unable, in this instance, to discover the battalion of the Manchester Regt. in which he originally served.

I ask if anyone can supply this info, please?

I note I am lacking the same battalion info. in respect of the following  Manchester Regt. officers, who, like Lt.Williamson, also transferred to the RFC/RAF.  I would appreciate any info. regarding these officers who are:-

2nd Lt. S.Hall  No 4 Squadron  RAF   18.10.18.
2nd Lt. Alec Glen, Croix de Guerre.  No. 8 Squadron RFC 28.12.15.
Lt. W. Shields  45 Squadron RFC 5.9.17.
2nd Lt. J.N.C.Washington  No.8 Squadron RFC   DOW 2.10.15.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on February 06, 2014, 09:16:57 PM

2nd Lt. Williamson
3rd Bn

WILLIAMSON, Second Lieutenant, HUGH ALBERT, Mentioned in Despatches, 34th
Sqdn., Royal Flying Corps. and , Manchester Regiment 2 July 1916. Age 29. Son of M.
A. Williamson, of " Irlam View ", Broad Rd., Sale, Cheshire, and the late Hugh
Williamson.

2nd Lt. David Alec Glen

Bn not known

GLEN, Second Lieutenant, ALEC, Mentioned in Despatches, 8th Sqdn., Royal Flying
Corps. and , Manchester Regiment, Killed in air combat 29 December 1915. Age 19.
Croix de Guerre with Palm (France).Son of the Rev. J. P. Glen, of The Manse, Norwich.
Grave Ref. II. B. 4A.

2nd Lt. Samuel Hall

Bn not known

Lt. William Shields

14th Bn

SHIELDS, Lieutenant, WILLIAM, 45th Sqdn., Royal Flying Corps. and, Manchester
Regiment, Killed in air combat 5 September 1917. Age 28. Son of Samuel and Sarah
Shields, of 33, Upper Frank St., Belfast. Grave Ref. I. H. 41.

2nd Lt Jonathan Noel Washington

Bn not known

WASHINGTON, Second Lieutenant, JONATHAN NOEL, 8th Sqdn., Royal Flying
Corps. and, Manchester Regiment, Died of wounds (received 25th Sept.) 2 October 1915.
Grave Ref. IV. H. 5.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on February 08, 2014, 09:41:59 AM
2/Lt jonathan,noel clulow Washington took his flight training on a Maurice farman at the military school Farnborough on 2-6-1915,he was born on 24th December 1895,no battalion recorded

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on February 08, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
hiya Philip.
there are a few more Manchester officers on the forum who went over to the RFC/RAF,search for flying manchesters

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 08, 2014, 11:59:25 AM
Timberman and Mack,

Many thanks to you both for the info.   As regards "the flying Mcrs." I am on the case! Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on February 08, 2014, 01:20:48 PM
its always a pleasure to be of help Philip

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 08, 2014, 03:27:17 PM
The Battle of Loos commenced on the 25th September 1915 and at dawn on that day 2nd Lt. Glen, formerly of the Manchester Regt. and now flying with No. 8 Squadron RFC was airborne, together with the rest of his squadron engaged in bombing operations over the front.  He was piloting a BE2c aircraft No. 1723 accompanied by his Observer 2nd Lt.D.C.Rutter.   Not unexpectedly, they were attacked by enemy aircraft.  During this fighting Lt.Glen's aircraft had descended to 1500 feet when it was engaged by enemy aircraft and "shot up".   Fortunately, the damage was minor and the crew were able to return safely to base.

(2nd Lt. Rutter subsequently took pilot training, reached the rank of Captain and at some stage during his flying career was awarded the MC.   Together with his Observer 2nd. Lt J.B.Jackson, they were engaged in ground attacks on enemy positions on the first day of the Battle of Messines when they were shot down, both being killed.)

2nd Lt. Glen was again in action on 29th December.  On this occasion he was taking part in a reconnaissance patrol over Cambrai, his Observer being Sgt. E.Jones.  Flying as one of the escort was another BE2c piloted by Lt.W.S.Sholto-Douglas.   At a height of 6500 feet the patrol was attacked by six Fokker aircraft, the subsequent battle occupying some 15/20 minutes.  Lt.Glen's aircraft was engaged by two of the enemy, Lt. Glen being wounded.  It was put into a spiral descent levelling out at 2000 feet, the intention being to avoid capture.  With similar intent Sholto-Douglas, whose aircraft was assailed by three German fighters was able to dive down and eventually return to base flying at just 20 feet.   However, Lt.Glen although wounded, managed to land the aircraft south west of Arras where he died.  Sgt. Jones was made a POW.

(Sholto-Douglas subsequently became an Air Chief Marshal in WW2 serving as AOC in C Fighter Command.)

In the same vein of research, I have come across No. 8226 Pte Reginald Lowe of the 17th Mcrs. who was wounded in July 1916, but who subsequently appears as a commissioned officer and Observer RAF, in action in 1918 with 62 Squadron.   I have put his name on my pending list for future research.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 09, 2014, 01:34:23 PM
Captain P.C.Cowan was a fighter pilot with No. 56 Squadron RFC having previously served with the 8th Bn.Manchester Regt.  On the 8th November 1917 two squadron aircraft (SE5a's) were ordered on a combat patrol.  The aircraft took off around 8.25 a.m., Captain Cowan flying No. B4883 whilst Lt.F.R.C.Cobbold was piloting No. B630.  The two pilots separated and in less than an hour later both men were in action with enemy pilots of Jastas 26 & 36.  Cobbold's aircraft was seen to be out of control and to crash over enemy territory, Cobbold surviving and, it is understood, being taken prisoner.

Captain Cowan's aircraft was observed to go into a spin which, perhaps through wounds, he was not able to counteract and with his aircraft out of control, he plunged to the ground and to his death.  He has no known grave and his name is recorded on the Flying Services Memorial in Arras.  I notice that 56 Squadron lost three aircraft that day, although the  pilot of one of the 'planes was uninjured.

Of interest, is that Captain P.C.Cowan's brother (Capt. Sidney E. Cowan)also served in the RFC (29 Sqdn.) and like his elder brother was also a fighter pilot.  Moreover, he belonged to that band of men who are regarded as "Air Aces" having in 1916 destroyed a total of seven enemy aircraft; indeed he is recognised as one of the very first "Aces" of the RFC.  Alas, whilst on an Offensive Patrol he was the victim in a mid-air collision and was killed.  He was 19 years old and the holder of a MC & two bars.




Second Lieut. E.W.Lindley was formerly serving with the 9th Manchesters before joining the Royal Flying Corps and reporting for duty with No.16 Squadron in February 1917.  On the 16th February  he was  ordered to fly a BE2c type aircraft No. 4179, taking with him 2nd. Lt. L.V. Munn.  His oders were to make himself familiar with the location of the British and German lines in the Arras sector.   The aircraft was airborne at 11.50 a.m. and some ten minutes later was east of Arras when it was shot down by Lt. K.Allmenroder of Jasta 11.  In the subsequent crash, Lt Munn was killed, but Lt. Lindley, obviously badly wounded was made a POW.  Sadly he died two days later. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 11, 2014, 04:16:12 PM
2nd.Lt. Reginald Lowe RAF (formerly No.8226 16 Platoon, "D" Coy. 17th Manchesters.

The pattern of this officer's military service with its ending with his commissioning in the RFC for air crew duties is particularly interesting, insofar as his career commenced as a private soldier in the 17th Mcrs. early in the war.  He arrived in France with his battalion in November 1915 and was wounded in action the following July.   At some time afterwards he must have applied for air crew duties,  for in September 1917 he was commissioned in the RFC and was subsequently sent on an Observers' Course at the School of Military Aeronautics at Reading.   On the 13th July 1918 he was posted to France, eventually joining No. 62 Squadron RAF.  No. 62 Sqdn. was equipped with a well-regarded two seater type aircraft known as a Bristol F2b.  A Lewis gun (I wonder what would be the capacity of the magazine) was fitted in the rear cockpit  mounting for use by the Observer when in action.   On the 4th September 1918, Lt Lowe was on air operations flying with Lt. R.O.Schallaire, a Canadian, as his pilot, an action which resulted in their being shot down near Cambrai, fortunately both officers being uninjured.

They were part of a two squadron escort of bombers (DH9's) who were ordered to make a bombing raid on Valenciennes station.  The raid was intercepted by a strong force of German Fokker DVll fighters and heavy losses were incurred on both sides.

Lt.Lowe was again in action on the 16th September, this time his pilot being 2nd.Lt. C.H.Moss.   This was the beginning of a period of heavy fighting as the enemy was anxious to penetrate the air cover provided by the RAF.  No. 62 Squadron met a number of Fokker DVll aircraft and in the ensuing fighting Lt. Lowe and his pilot shot down one of the DVll's, although in this action Lt. Moss was wounded.  Nevertheless, it would seem from the Squadron report that they were able to return to base safely.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 12, 2014, 02:57:28 PM
Re our intrepid aviator named above who "downed" a Fokker D7. I see from the Book of Honour that a Pte D.C. Lowe No 8225 is listed on the Platoon roll. Could this be a relative, do you think?  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 15, 2014, 04:22:25 PM
Lieutenant (later Captain) E.G.Leake MC  No. 59 Squadron RFC/RAF & 7th Manchesters

No.59 Squadron RFC was equipped with two-seater aircraft of a type known as the RE8 which was designed for bomber and reconnaissance duties.   Many pilots regarded it as unstable, but nevertheless, it continued in action for the last two years of the war.  The squadron arrived in France at a time when the Germans  had the upper hand in air superiority and suffered in what was known as "bloody April 1917".   On the 8th April, (prior to the Battle of Arras), Lt. Leake and his Observer, Lt.P.L.Hogan, together with three aircraft of No. 59 Squadron RFC were acting as escorts to aircraft photographing enemy lines at Etaing (east of Arras).     The patrol was attacked by German fighters and in each case the British machines were damaged, all the crews becoming casualties apart from Lt. Leake.  However, Lt. Leake was not to escape wounds, for he was slightly injured by enemy anti-aircraft fire when on patrol on 4th May and again on the 7th June when observing fire for British artillery batteries.

By March 1918, the squadron was in action over the Somme battlefields, heavily involved in the German Offensives of 1918 with all the difficulties entailed in moving landing grounds/spares etc. to the rear.   On the 25th March, Lt.Leake and his Observer 2nd Lt.TH Upfill were ordered to patrol over Loupart Wood.   However, they met severe enemy fire and their aircraft being damaged, they returned to base, neither Leake nor Upfill being wounded.

Three days later Leake and his Observer (Upfill) were airborne on a dawn patrol, but were shot down near Collincamps, the result of enemy ground machine gun fire.   Despite the crash both men were uninjured.

By July 1918, Leake had been promoted, for now he was holding the rank of Captain and moreover, had been awarded the Military Cross.   On the 24th July his aircraft was under anti-aircraft fire, in the course of which he was wounded.  Sadly, his wounds must have been severe for he died a week later.   His family lived in Hale, Cheshire, but pointed out in the CWGC "Additional Information" that he was a "native of Manchester",

As regards Captain Leake's Observer - Lt. Upfill, after his brother officer's death, he qualified as a pilot and was later awarded the Military Cross.  He and his Observer - 2nd. Lt.J.C.Walker were shot down and killed west of Solesmes by a German pilot of Jasta 37 on the 18th October 1918.

It would be very interesting to learn of Captain Leake's service with the 7th Manchesters.   Is that possible, please?   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on February 16, 2014, 08:11:03 AM
hello philip.
capt eric,gilbert leake was born in fallowfield on 26-1-1893,his parents james,medley+florence leake later moved to hale,he was sent to sedbergh school as a child and eventually became head boy in the higher school,he left in 1910,in 1913 he went to canada to work in the royal canadian bank on young st,ontario,when war broke out in 1914,he returned to england and took up training with the canadian highlanders,he went to france with the 15th batt canadian infantry in early 1915.
at some time,he transferred to the 7th manchesters
trained on a maurice farman at the military school,brooklands and passed his test on 5-1-1917
resided at "ardencraig"ollerbarrow rd,hale

theres a photo of him in the british aero club roll.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on February 16, 2014, 08:47:26 AM
Captain George Chadwick

7th Manchester's & RAF

Not sure when transferred.
Issued with a SWB in 1919?

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 16, 2014, 10:26:07 AM
Greetings to Mack & Timberman,

Thanks once again for your interest and help in this absorbing research; a task sometimes frustrating,but occasionally very worthwhile.  In that category I place No.8226 Pte R. Lowe- private soldier in the "Pals" to a flyer.  Thanks once more. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 16, 2014, 01:06:41 PM
Captain George Chadwick was another officer in the 7th Manchesters who transferred into the RFC, being posted to No. 19 Squadron operating in the Ypres area.  The squadron was equipped with a single - seater fighter 'plane of some repute known as the SPAD 7.

On the 4th June 1917, Captain Chadwick was airborne on an Observation Patrol in his Spad 7 aircraft No. A6687 flying in the area Roulers-Menin-Ypres.  Whilst over Dickebusch he engaged in combat with enemy fighters, but was badly "shot up" and forced to land, his aircraft being wrecked in the process.   During the action he was wounded in the knee.

In due course, No. 19 Squadron was re-equipped with a diferent type of 'plane, known as the Sopwith Dolphin, a multi-gun single seater fighter aircraft.  On the afternoon of 3rd May 1918, again on Observation Patrol, Captain Chadwick entered into combat with enemy aircraft west of Neuve Chapelle, but was shot down over German occupied territory,possibly in the La Bassee region, by a German pilot of Jasta 52.   His squadron reported him as Missing in Action, but it subsequently emerged that he was a POW.



Second Lieutenant John Rawsthorne Tyrer was another officer in the 7th Manchesters who transferred to the RFC, in this case joining No.6 Squadron.  The squadron was operating in the Ypres area flying RE8 aircraft.   On the 9th October 1917 with Lt. NW Wadham as pilot and Lt. Tyrer as Observer, their aircraft was shot down by British artillery over Hooge and their 'plane crashed, wounding the pilot, but killing Lt. Tyrer.  The squadron log states "......hit by British shell."

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on February 16, 2014, 02:20:17 PM
My affiliation with George Chadwick is purely by name and but have know about him for awhile.

But something you have put about him Philip came as a bit of a surprise.

I�ve had a (very) long association with 19sqn, so to find that George Chadwick

was one of the first pilots with the squadron was a nice surprise.

Formed 1915, went to France 1916.

Moto   
   Latin:Possunt quia posse videntur
(Translation: "They can because they think they can")

Also has the Dolphin in the crest.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 16, 2014, 08:25:32 PM
Glad to have been of service. Watch your airspeed. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 22, 2014, 10:39:15 AM
These two officers transferred to the RFC/RAF from the 5th battalion.  It would be interesting to know where they served prior to their transfers.

2nd Lt. Norman Butterworth RFC

Lt. Butterworth was attached to No. 70 Squadron RFC, the squadron operating Sopwith "Strutter" aircraft, a two-seater machine designed for reconnaissance and bombing duties.  Early in the afternoon of the 10th May 1917 a "Strutter" type aircraft No.A8174 was on an operational flight with Captain R.S. Lucy piloting the 'plane and Lt. Butterworth acting as his Observer.   Somewhere over Morlancourt they were in combat with enemy aircraft and shot down.   Captain Lucy was unwounded in the fighting, but Lt. Butterworth had been killed in the combat.  He is buried in Bray Military Cemetery.

2nd Lt. Robert Hilton RAF. No. 13 (Corps) Squadron.

On the 6th April 1918, there was concern by GHQ that the enemy were about to launch an attack on the Portuguese Division.  (In the event, the German attack went foward three days later).   On the morning of the 6th April, 2nd Lt. Hilton (Observer) and Lt. S.T.Payne (Pilot) were on photographic operations flying in a RE8 type aircraft.   They failed to return to base.  As no details were available at that time regarding their failure to return, both officers were listed as MIA.    On 29th April advice was received that they had been shot down and had subsequently died of their wounds.   They have no known grave and their names are accordingly on the Arras Flying Services Memorial.
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on February 23, 2014, 06:30:29 AM
hiya Philip
according to SDGW,2/Lt Hilton was listed as "DIED",it also says he was in the 16th manchesters and the date of death was 29-4-18,the CWGC list him as died on 6-4-18.resided at 4 marine drive southport.
according to his will,he died on 6-4-18,5th manchesters and living at 4 st.malo rd,wigan

2/Lt butterworth died at the 48th CCS at bray.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 23, 2014, 12:40:12 PM
Mack,
 Once again thanks for your info.   During this research I discovered, as you have certainly done, that there is an interesting mystery here.

My research indicated that both Hilton and his "driver" - Lt.S.T.Payne- died on the 6th April 1918. (CWGC).   "Officers Died in the Great War 1914-19" states that Hilton died on 29th April 1918.  However, notwithstanding that both aviators were flying together, Lt. Payne is indicated in that publication as dying on the 6th April 1918.

Turning to the squadron report, this indicates that on the 6th April 1918 both officers were MIA.   It also reports that both officers DOW on 29th April 1918.  Again turning to "Officers Died" it reports Hilton as being in the 16th battalion.

I do not know whether or not you have ever raised a query with the CWGC, but they are adamant that their source of material is always correct and emanates from the War Office itself.   Thus, in those circumstances, I tend to feel that not only did those brave officers die on the 6th April 1918, but also that Robert Hilton served in the 5th battalion.   (But when?).    Do you agree?  Again thanks for your input. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Pete Th on February 23, 2014, 01:15:15 PM
Philip, a little bit more information about 2nd Lt Norman Butterworth:

http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=5191.0

Regards
Pete
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on February 23, 2014, 01:35:18 PM
hiya Philip.
the CWGC accepted the deaths of servicemen/woman from lists provided by the war office,theres no guarantee that either of them knew the exact date,it will probably remain one of the mysteries of the war.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 24, 2014, 12:13:11 PM
Pete and Mack.

Re. N.Butterworth RFC

Thanks for your comments.  Most interesting and intriguing, too.   As you will have seen, the date of death I have (10th May 1917) differs from that given by the CWGC (9th May 1917) and that on Lt. Butterworth's headstone. 

Dave refers to a Sopwith 2 being downed by Vzfw Dilcher, Jasta 5.  My info. states that this aircraft (also No. 70 Sqdrn.) was shot down on the 9th May 1917, the Observer/Gunner being AM 2nd Class G.D.Breakfield, whilst the pilot was 2nd Lt. W.J.Gayner.  Both aviators were KIA.

Pete: As regards the headstone, I wonder if the inscription requested by the NOK was considered by the CWGC to be too long to be accommodated in the usual position at the foot of the headstone?

Mack:  Your remarks re the accuracy of deaths seem to come over as particularly appropriate in this instance.  Thanks again. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 27, 2014, 01:30:15 PM
Captain H.B.Coomber No. 45 Squadron RFC & 8th Bn. Manchester Regt.

Captain Coomber was KIA on 12th October 1917, the opening day of the First Battle of Passchendaele, a year after his transfer to flying duties.  To say that conditions for the attack were bad would be an understatement, indeed by early afternoon a halt was called because the ground was waterlogged.  This does not mean that the RFC were inactive, but the cost was heavy amongst the ten squadrons detailed for co-operation with the attacking ground forces.  Among those killed on that day was Captain Coomber, a fighter pilot with No.45 Squadron flying a Sopwith Camel aircraft, a single-seater biplane, a machine of good repute.

He had taken off on an Offensive Patrol at 10.45 a.m. and 35 minutes later he became involved in combat with German fighters of Jasta 35,being shot down east of Houthulst.  His failure to return to base resulted in him being reported as missing in action, but later he was reported to have been killed in the combat.   His grave lies in Dadizeele New British Cemetery.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 27, 2014, 02:52:39 PM
2nd.Lt. J.N.Washington No. 8 Squadron RFC & Manchester Regt.

This officer belonged to the same squadron as 2nd.Lt Glen and indeed, like Glen had transferred from the Manchesters to the RFC.   As in the case of Lt. Glen, sadly we do not know in which battalion of the Regiment Lt.Washington had served.   Details of Lt.Glen's RFC service are reported in a previous post on this site.

It so happened that Lt. Washington was airborne on reconnaissance duties in a BE2c aircraft on the same day (25th Sept.1915-Battle of Loos) as Glen and his Observer were involved in bombing operations over the same battlefield.   However,Washington and his Observer - 2nd Lt. M.W.Greenhow- were not so fortunate as to return to base, insofar as they were shot down by enemy action south of Metz-en-Couture and both made POW's.   It would seem that Lt. Washington had been wounded, for he died in German hands at Bapaume on the 2nd October 1915.   He is buried in Achiet-Le-Grand Comm.Cem. Extn.   As regards his Observer, Lt. Greenhow, he was sent to a German POW camp and survived the War, returning home from Holland on the 18th November 1918.

I notice that Lt. Greenhow was in a group of about a dozen officers who were interned in Holland in April 1918.  It would be interesting to learn of the reason for this group transfer from German custody, which was not the only transfer of this type to take place. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 01, 2014, 12:09:33 PM
2nd. Lieutenant Norman Field  No. 25 Squadron RFC & 5th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

On the 15th August 1917, the Canadian Corps attacked the enemy positions on Hill 70, an attack which proved to be successful.  The previous day, the RFC was in action carrying out its usual photographic, patrolling and bombing duties over the Loos battlefield.  No. 25 Squadron, flying DH4 type aircraft was one of the squadrons detailed for bombing enemy positions on that day; 2nd. Lt. Field as Observer and with his Canadian pilot 2nd.Lt.P.L.McGavin airborne in their machine No. A2159 in the early evening.  The DH4 was a two-seater light bomber with one forward-firing Vickers machine gun for use by the pilot and a single Lewis gun operated by the observer/gunner.

Unfortunately, they were attacked by 20 enemy aircraft of Jasta 37 and not surprisingly were shot down and killed.   The squadron reports that the aircraft "broke up", indicating perhaps, that these brave flyers
fell from the sky to their death, no parachutes for aircrew being issued.  The wreckage of their machine was located near Wingles.   Both officers are buried in adjacent graves in Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery at Souchez.

The shooting down of this machine was ascribed to Leutnant Ernst Udet, who was to become an "Ace" with the eventual destruction of 62 Allied aircraft being attributed to him.  Udet survived the Great War and held in some esteem by Hermann Goring, served with the German Air Force in WW2.  He committed suicide in November 1941.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 03, 2014, 03:04:04 PM
On the 16th September 1917, Lt.Herbert Haslam of No. 6 Squadron RFC and previously of the 14th Manchesters was piloting a RE8 type aircraft over the Ypres Salient with Corporal A.J.Linlay acting as his observer/gunner.   They took off from their base in the late afternoon to carry out a photographic exercise.  However, whilst in the region of Becelaere they were attacked by two enemy aircraft of Jasta 18.  Haslam managed to throw the aircraft into a controlled spin in an effort to escape from his attackers, but presumably crashed to the ground.   The Log reports both aviators as being killed in action, but it would seem that Cpl. Linlay survived as I can find no record of his death.  Lt. Haslam has no known grave and his name is thus recorded on the Flying Services Memorial in Arras.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on March 03, 2014, 08:37:51 PM
Captain P.C.Cowan was a fighter pilot with No. 56 Squadron RFC having previously served with the 8th Bn.Manchester Regt.  On the 8th November 1917 two squadron aircraft (SE5a's) were ordered on a combat patrol.  The aircraft took off around 8.25 a.m., Captain Cowan flying No. B4883 whilst Lt.F.R.C.Cobbold was piloting No. B630.  The two pilots separated and in less than an hour later both men were in action with enemy pilots of Jastas 26 & 36.  Cobbold's aircraft was seen to be out of control and to crash over enemy territory, Cobbold surviving and, it is understood, being taken prisoner.

Captain Cowan's aircraft was observed to go into a spin which, perhaps through wounds, he was not able to counteract and with his aircraft out of control, he plunged to the ground and to his death.  He has no known grave and his name is recorded on the Flying Services Memorial in Arras.  I notice that 56 Squadron lost three aircraft that day, although the  pilot of one of the 'planes was uninjured.

Of interest, is that Captain P.C.Cowan's brother (Capt. Sidney E. Cowan)also served in the RFC (29 Sqdn.) and like his elder brother was also a fighter pilot.  Moreover, he belonged to that band of men who are regarded as "Air Aces" having in 1916 destroyed a total of seven enemy aircraft; indeed he is recognised as one of the very first "Aces" of the RFC.  Alas, whilst on an Offensive Patrol he was the victim in a mid-air collision and was killed.  He was 19 years old and the holder of a MC & two bars.




Second Lieut. E.W.Lindley was formerly serving with the 9th Manchesters before joining the Royal Flying Corps and reporting for duty with No.16 Squadron in February 1917.  On the 16th February  he was  ordered to fly a BE2c type aircraft No. 4179, taking with him 2nd. Lt. L.V. Munn.  His oders were to make himself familiar with the location of the British and German lines in the Arras sector.   The aircraft was airborne at 11.50 a.m. and some ten minutes later was east of Arras when it was shot down by Lt. K.Allmenroder of Jasta 11.  In the subsequent crash, Lt Munn was killed, but Lt. Lindley, obviously badly wounded was made a POW.  Sadly he died two days later. PhilipG.
e.w lindlay was buried by the germans in vitry-en-artois communal cemetery,his body was exhumed during battlefield clearance and buried in brown copse cemetery
son of Edward,thomas+margaret,elizabeth lindley,"woodfield"russells crescent,horley,surrey,he was 20yrs old[died at vitroyen]

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 04, 2014, 08:32:17 AM
Mack,

Many thanks for that. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 08, 2014, 12:20:08 PM
On the 5th September 1917 Lt. William Shields, formerly of the 14th Manchesters and now serving with No. 45 Sqdn. RFC was detailed, along with 2nd Lt. A.O.MacNiven, to patrol over the Ypres Salient, each officer piloting a single seat fighter known as the Sopwith Camel.

The records show that both aircraft took off at 7.10.a.m. carrying out patrolling duties as instructed, in the region of Comines.  However, around 9.0.a.m. they were seen in combat in that area with enemy aircraft and both pilots were shot down, in the case of Lt.Shields, his machine crashing in No Man's Land, and that of Lt.MacNiven falling to the ground near Zillebeke.

Lt. Shields was buried in Voormezeele Enclosures No. 1 & 2.   Lt.MacNiven has no known grave and is commemorated on the Flying Services Memorial  in Arras.




On the 18th October 1918 2nd Lt. S.Hall, formerly of the Manchester Regiment, (battalion not known), piloting a RE8 type aircraft of No. 4 Squadron RAF, together with his Observer, 2nd Lt.G.P.Blake was on a reconnaissance patrol in the region of Tourcoing.  For several days previously the weather had been such as to limit the amount of flying by the RAF that could be undertaken.  Thus, many thousands of enemy soldiers were able to continue their retreat eastwards and unscathed, thereby avoiding heavy casualties which would most certainly have occurred had it been possible to undertake artillery and aircraft attacks.

Nothing is known regarding these two airmen's failure to return to base which they had left around noon, and whilst Lt.Hall is buried in Tourcoing (Port Neuville) Comm. Cem., the fate of 2nd Lt. G.P.Blake is indicated as "KIA?".   
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Marymuseum on March 12, 2014, 01:11:06 PM
Hi Philip - I've posted this on the post about Henry Waddington in the Manchester police bit of the forum - another one who went flying! 

E 33 HENRY WADDINGTON
This Officer joined the Manchester City Police on the 27th September 1905, he having completed 2 years and 143 days approved service in the Gloucester Police prior to that date.  On the 13th February 1913 he was promoted to the rank of Acting Sergeant and shortly after the outbreak of War he volunteered as a Drill Instructor for the training of the new Armies.  He subsequently resigned from the Police and enlisted in the Manchester Regiment and during the Somme Offensive in 1916 he was granted a Commission.  He was later transferred to the Royal Air Force, and at the time he was demobilised had attained the rank of Major.

Mary
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 12, 2014, 02:57:11 PM
Mary,

Thanks for that info. I will see if I can trace him at this end.  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 13, 2014, 10:21:53 AM
Mary,

Re Henry Waddington

You write "he was later transferred to the Royal Air Force".

To narrow down the search can you confirm, please, that he joined the Royal Air Force and not the Royal Flying Corps?  The RAF was founded on the 1st April 1918 (April Fools' Day), a date to which attention is sometimes drawn by those serving in the RN and Army!  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Marymuseum on March 13, 2014, 11:06:06 PM
Philip - that's a direct transcript from the Chief Constable's Orders, so I can't clarify any further, sorry!
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 21, 2014, 05:32:35 PM
Mary,
Sorry for the delay, but despite my research efforts I have not come up with anything useful.  His rank of Major suggests that he may have commanded a squadron. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Marymuseum on March 24, 2014, 09:52:26 PM
Cheers Philip!  If I find anything else out I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 27, 2014, 09:37:38 AM
2nd/Lt F.H.Thorp RFC & 10th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

Lieutenant Thorp was a pilot serving with No.13 Squadron RFC, a squadron equipped with two-seater bi-plane aircraft of a type known as the RE8.  He died of wounds on 31st March 1918, a period of the Great War when the British had "their backs to the wall" and were in retreat on account of the German breakthrough.

The strategy of the RFC (within a few days to become the RAF) was to stifle the German advance as best they could and in doing so casualties were by no means light, for instance, the total losses on the 30th March and 31st March were 19 aircraft and crews.

The RE8 aircraft as previously mentioned is designed for an operational crew of two, so it was interesting to note that to achieve maximum effort against the enemy, two RE8 squadrons were despatching aircraft into action without an Observer or gunner, relying on the pilot alone to bring down any attacker.   What was achieved by this is not clear, but two of the aircraft in action on this basis were shot down on 30th March, the pilots being wounded and in the case of Lt.Thorp, he sadly succumbed to his wounds the following day.   He is buried in Aubigny Comm. Cem. Extn.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on March 29, 2014, 07:53:41 AM
2/Lt henry,leslie,cooper morley
1/8th manchesters
wounded in the left calf at Gallipoli may 1915,admitted to cairo hospital
aged 21
resided thornbury house,victoria park,manchester
became a captain in the RFC
died 1st November 1948 at the royal sussex county hospital

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 29, 2014, 11:22:19 AM
Mack,

Thank you for that. As you surmised some time ago, there is a greater number who decided to transfer than I had ever anticipated.  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 01, 2014, 09:50:40 AM
2nd Lt. D.E.Stevens: No. 20 Squadron RFC and 2/5th battalion Manchester Regiment.

No. 20 Squadron was equipped with Bristol F2b aircraft and in March 1918 was operating in the Ypres sector.   The F2b was a two-seater biplane fighter of good repute and it was in a machine of this type that 2nd Lt. Stevens was killed in action on the 13th March 1918.

It is not clear how Stevens met his death, for intriguingly, he appears to have been flying solo, there being no Observer/gunner in the rear cockpit.  In cases such as this, I have sometimes wondered how the pilot could have been killed.   Was it an "air test" and he was surprised in flight by enemy action, or could it have been an "area familiarisation patrol" with the same result?  We may never know.   I note that the CWGC have his rank recorded as Lieutenant although the squadron gave him the rank of 2nd Lt. in their records.   

By coincidence, Wilfred Owen was commissioned in the 5th Manchesters, too and was killed in action in November 1918 whilst attached to the 2nd battalion holding the rank of 2nd Lt.   After his death it was discovered that Owen should have been promoted to Lieutenant some 18 months prior to his death, the CWGC in due course being advised accordingly.   I wonder if this could be the case regarding Stevens' rank?

This young airman is buried in Longuenesse (St.Omer) Cemetery.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 04, 2014, 04:31:19 PM
Captain James M.Child M.C.  Manchester Regiment and RAF - "Fighter Ace."

At the outbreak of the Great War, this officer was living in Canada and upon returning home joined the army, in due course being commissioned in the Manchester Regiment.   I do not know to which battalion he was assigned.

To read his record of war service is to be impressed, for after pilot training he was posted to France as a fighter pilot joining No.4 Squadron RFC and in July 1916 he was transferred to No.19 Squadron also a fighter squadron.   In May 1917 he was promoted to the rank of Captain receiving a Mention in Despatches.  After a spell on non-operational duties he was sent to join No. 84 Squadron as a Flight Commander with the task of assisting in the difficult duty, sometimes costly in lives, of introducing inexperienced pilots to combat flying.  Whilst with this squadron Captain Child was awarded the Military Cross.   By the end of November 1917 he had become a "Fighter Ace", having "downed" eight enemy aircraft, three with No. 19 Squadron piloting a Spad type of aircraft and a further five when flying a SE5A with No. 84 Squadron.   His area of operations had at various times involved combat not only in the Ypres Salient, but also in the region of Cambrai.   Obviously a skilled fighter pilot.

In February 1918 he was posted to England as a flying instructor, eventually being sent to Canada to perform similar training duties in that country.  On the 23rd August it would seem that one of his unit's aircraft was in difficulties for it is reported that Child met his death trying to rescue an airman from an aircraft which had crashed.

He is commemorated on the headstone of the family grave at Chingford Mount Cemetery, the inscription on the memorial I am pleased to see, also makes reference to his service in the Manchester Regiment as well as to that of the RAF.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on April 05, 2014, 09:26:18 AM
captain child was a bank clerk,he was in Canada working as a mineral prospector when the war began,he was a member of the Canadian militia,he was unable to return to England with the Canadian expeditionary force,so he paid his own passage on the ADRIATIC,arriving in England on 18th February 1915.and commissioned as a 2/Lt in the 13th DLI
he passed his royal aero club certificate on 31-1-16 on a Maurice farman at the military school catterick bridge
5 victories were on a SE5A,serial number B562
awarded chevalier of the order of leopold II 28-9-17,belgium Croix de guerre 15-3-18 and MC gazetted 5-7-18
he died rescuing fellow officers from a plane crash at drakemyre Scotland,his body was returned to his hometown and buried at Chingford in the family grave
resided at 83 king st,leytonstone
there a photo of him in the royal aero club archives

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 05, 2014, 10:10:08 AM
Mack,

Thanks for that.   I did not realise he was killed in Scotland.  It must have been a bad crash, perhaps with exploding ammo. and/or petrol in the vicinity.

What unusual tasks bank clerks did in those days!!!

I have drawn a blank regarding the battalion in which he served. I fear we shall never know. Thanks again. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on April 06, 2014, 07:23:15 PM
hello Philip.
in his photo,hes badged up to the DLI,perhaps he wasn't allocated to a Manchester battalion in the short time he was an infantry officer.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 06, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Hello Phillip

 As Mack says in the royal aero club archives
he's badged as DLI

But in soldiers that died he's list

1st and 2nd and RA?

Name:   James Martin Child
Death Date:   23 Aug 1918
Rank:   Captain
Regiment:   Manchester Regiment
Battalion:   1/2 Battalion
Decoration:   MC
Type of Casualty:   Killed
Comments:   And R A

CWGC List

CHILD, JAMES MARTIN
Rank:
Captain
Date of Death:
23/08/1918
Age:
25
Regiment/Service:
Royal Air Force
and Manchester Regiment
Awards:
M C
Grave Reference
C.R. 7284.
Cemetery
CHINGFORD MOUNT CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Chevalier of the Order of Leopold II. Croix de Guerre (Belgium).
Son of Tylney Harris Child and Constance Octavio Child, of 83,
King's Rd., Leytonstone. His brother Jack Escott Child also fell.

The rest I've got I'll post in the mods section as it would infringe
copyright.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 06, 2014, 09:14:59 PM
Photo found at

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/child2.php

Also there is a photo at

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=42031312

where he's wearing Manchester badges
also photos of his grave.

Wiki also have a bit on him :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Martin_Child




Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 07, 2014, 10:58:49 AM
Mack and Timberman,

Thanks for the info. which raises another question upon which I am working!  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 12, 2014, 12:03:46 PM
Lieutenant Sidney Collier MC, RFC,  No. 5 Squadron and 6th Bn. Manchester Regiment. KIA 28.3.18.

There can be no doubt that at this difficult time during the Great War, the support given by the RFC to the retreating British troops was magnificent and the high number of casualties suffered by the airmen on 28th March 1918 illustrates this fact.

A continuing problem was the lack of extensive British artillery activity, the movement of which was impeded by the scale of the enemy's attacks.   Thus, RFC Command ensured that at all times British aircraft were in action over the battlefields in substantial numbers and were carrying out offensives against targets which they would not normally have undertaken.   There are historians who would assert that the RFC and from a few days later (1st April) when it became the RAF, "saved the British Army".

It was against this background that a RE8 aircraft piloted by 2nd.Lt.P.W.Woodhouse with Lt. Collier as his Observer was airborne over the Arras battlefield at 9.40 a.m. on 28th March carrying out an artillery patrol.   Although in contrast to the fighting farther south, the Arras front gave an impression of some stability, No. 5 Squadron was nevertheless involved in combat and Lt. Collier's machine was shot down and both crew members killed.   The two men are buried in La Chaudiere Military Cemetery, Vimy.

I wonder if it is possible to ascertain with what unit Lt. Collier was serving when awarded the Military Cross?

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 25, 2014, 03:35:56 PM
I am having difficulty tracing the Service careers of the following officers and wonder, please, if anyone has further info. than that given below:-

Lt. F.Leach Royal Air Force & 8th Manchesters.
Died 16.6.18
 Kirkee Memorial, India.


Captain and Flight Commander Robert Reeder Royal Flying Corps. & 10th Manchesters.
Died 6.1.18
Doullens Comm. Cem. Extn.No.1

PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Robert Bonner on August 12, 2014, 05:04:17 PM
Philip.
I've come across these officers & NCOs who transferred and received awards:

15399 Sgt SB Percival MM, attached 27 Sqn RAF.
Major WR Freeman DSO, MC. French Legion of Honour. 2nd Bn & RFC.
Captain AG Moore. MC. 4th Bn & RFC.
Major VA Albrecht OBE. 2nd Bn & RFC.
Major JS Foulkes OBE.  18th Bn & RFC.
Lieut H Waddington OBE.  19th Bn & RFC.
 

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 13, 2014, 09:43:23 AM
Robert,

Thanks for this info.  I'll see if I can trace any of them.  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 13, 2014, 11:59:13 AM
Lieutenant W.R.Freeman (Major W.R.Freeman: 2nd Manchesters & No. 2 Squadron RFC).

The Official dates for the Battle of the Aisne are 12th - 15th September 1914 with the British Army engaging with the enemy along the river.   Almost 100 years ago (12th September 1914), this officer, together with Lt. L.Dawes piloting the aircraft were in action in the Laon-Soissons sector, flying a BE2 aircraft No. 384 of No.2 Squadron Royal Flying Corps.

Their aircraft was hit by German machine gun fire from the ground and forced to land, but in doing so crashed into some woods, the aircraft being badly damaged.   Using the cover of darkness, both officers managed to escape to the British lines in the west, swimming the River Aisne to do so, subsequently re-joining their unit.

Lt.Freeman was again airborne, this time on the 3rd November 1914 flying one of No. 2 Squadron's aircraft, namely a Bleriot XI - No. B1807.  It is not clear upon what duties Lt. Freeman was involved, but his aircraft was damaged by shell fire and flown to St.Omer.

Lastly, it would be interesting to learn when Lt. Freeman qualified as a pilot.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
Hi Philip

Is this the chap  Wilfred Rhodes Freeman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 01:16:42 PM
Captain AG Moore. MC. 4th Bn & RFC.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 01:30:41 PM
Major VA Albrecht
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 01:48:59 PM
Lt DA.Glen
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 02:02:02 PM
Lt JNC Washington

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 02:12:10 PM
Lt Leake. Eric Gilbert
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 02:18:15 PM
Capt G.Chadwick
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 02:24:39 PM
Lt John Rawsthorne. Tyrer
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 02:35:07 PM
Lt Herbert Haslam
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: themonsstar on August 13, 2014, 02:46:13 PM
Lt JM.Child
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 13, 2014, 07:43:43 PM
 No. 3/15399 Sgt. Stephen Bernard Percival MM, Croix de Guerre (France), Medaille Militaire, 52nd        Manchesters & No. 27 Squadron RAF.

On the 14th August 1918, Sgt.Percival was airborne in the Arras sector flying in a DH9 aircraft No. D1702 of No. 27 Squadron RAF acting as Observer to his pilot 2nd Lt. J.H. Dickson.  The records show Percival and his pilot as being "killed while flying."

However, further investigation reveals that there was a collision whilst in the air with another DH9 aircraft (E634) of the same squadron, this 'plane being flown by 2nd Lt. A.F.Millar with 2nd Lt. J.V.Lee acting as his Observer.   All four flyers were killed and are buried in adjacent graves in Wanquetin Com. Cem. Extn.  Sgt.Percival who was only 19 was the son of the Rev. B.& Mrs E.L.Percival of Warrington.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 19, 2014, 08:45:32 PM
             2nd Lt. C.H.Case: No.20 Squadron RAF & 11th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

On the 29th September 1918, the battle for the Hindenburg Line commenced, particularly to the north of Bellenglise, where the breakthrough over the St.Quentin Canal in the region of the Riqueval Bridge was amazingly successful and a bridgehead of some size was effected.  The Press described it as "the miracle of the war".   The 2nd Manchesters were involved on that day, the battalion eventually taking up positions near Magny-La-Fosse on the 30th September, preparatory to making an attack on Joncourt the following day having suffered 24 casualties in doing so, including four of Wilfred Owen's brother officers.

The RAF were far from idle during that battle, some 300 or so of its aircraft being in action, one of which was No. E 2561 of No. 20 Squadron , a fighter-reconnaissance squadron operating Bristol F2b aircraft.  This machine was flown by 2nd Lt. N.S.Boulton with 2nd Lt. C.H.Case occupying the rear cockpit as gunner.   They had commenced an operational patrol at 9.05 a.m. and had been seen in good shape flying west of the lines, but they failed to return to base and both officers were reported as MIA.   Subsequently, it was established that both flyers had been killed in action having been shot down by Leutnant Mai of Jasta 5.   Lt. Boulton is buried in Bellicourt British Cem., whilst Lt. Case lies in Uplands Cemetery, Magny-La-Fosse.  Lt.Boulton is recorded as an "Air Ace" having shot down six enemy aircraft whilst operating in the St.Quentin area.

Uplands Cemetery is small and lies just on the outskirts of Joncourt alongside a narrow road leading into Joncourt village.   To the cemetery rear lies a valley once known as Springbok Valley and it was along this valley that the 15th Lancs. Fus. attacked towards the village, suffering heavy casualties from fire from a machine-gun post built into the railway embankment and which still exists today.

The photograph on the CWGC web site for this cemetery is worth looking at, the Lancashire  Fusiliers and later the 2nd Manchesters attacking from the area on the photograph's left to its right.   Whilst  the graves of soldiers of the L.Fus. predominate in this cemetery, there is one  Manchester Regiment officer buried there, namely, Lt. Reginald Webb of the 6th Manchesters, who was a friend of Wilfred Owen.  Lt. Webb was killed in action at Joncourt on the 1st October 1918 whilst serving with the 2nd Manchesters.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 20, 2014, 08:00:36 AM
For some reason I have confused Wilfred Owen's friend Webb with another of his army friends Gregg.  It is therefore, Lt. Reginald Gregg who is buried in Uplands Cem. Sorry!
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 21, 2014, 11:24:31 AM
2nd Lieutenant William Everton Baldwin: 18 Squadron RAF and Manchester Regiment.

On the morning of the 29th August 1918, 2nd Lt. Baldwin and his pilot Lt. W.Hogg were flying in a DH4 type aircraft No. A 7957 of No. 18 Squadron RAF taking part in a bombing attack on Herdan, near Lille.  They met strong enemy resistance and the engine of their machine was hit during the raid, resulting in a difficult landing at base having to be made and the 'plane was damaged in doing so.   Lt. Hogg was uninjured, but it was discovered after landing, that Lt.Baldwin had been wounded during the fighting and he subsequently died of his wounds.   There is doubt about his date of death, for the CWGC gives this as being on the 25th August 1918.  He is buried in Varennes Military Cemetery.

Notes:

It was on this day that the German Army decided to abandon Peronne. The "Advance to Victory" was continuing.

I have not been able to discover the battalion in which Lt. Baldwin served before his transfer to the RFC/RAF.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 23, 2014, 12:50:16 PM
         2nd Lt. Harry Stanley Gough: 48 Squadron RFC & 8th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

At 6.10 a.m. on the 17th August 1917, acting as pilot of a Bristol F2b of No. 48 Squadron RFC numbered A 7210 and with Captain L.F.Reincke in the rear cockpit, Lt. Gough set course for an operational patrol over the lines, possibly in the region of Dunkirk.   It was not long before they were engaged in combat with a superior force of German aircraft during which the aircraft's engine was hit by enemy fire, Captain Reincke killed and Lt. Gough wounded.   However, the squadron log reports that Gough managed to reach base at 7.30 a.m. and to land his damaged machine without further mishap.

It would appear that Lt.Gough was eventually posted to England, possibly to recover from his wounds, for there is a record that he was "killed whilst flying" and is buried in the Military Cemetery at Tidworth.  Salisbury Plain and its surrounds were well provided with areas for flying training, but what caused his aircraft to crash is not known.   Captain Reincke is buried in Zuydcoote Mil.Cem.
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 03, 2014, 03:14:50 PM
             Lt. John Reginald Orrell  : llth Manchesters and RFC.

The 1st August 1917 should have been the day for the Army to go on the offensive, but the weather for the following days proved to make it impossible for the infantry to proceed and, as General Gough wrote, "deprived the Army of the use of our eyes", i.e. the Royal Flying Corps".

Lieutenant Orrell was a graduate of No. 1 (Observers) School of Aerial Gunnery and in due course was posted to No. 34 Squadron RFC.   On the 6th August, with some improvement in the weather, he was flying on patrol with 2nd Lt. R.T.Barlow as his pilot in a RE8 type aircraft - No. A99- over the North Sea shore line of the Belgium coast, the flyers having left their airfield at around 2 p.m.

The aircraft came under enemy observation and about 3 p.m. whilst over the sea near La Panne, the machine's engine was hit by anti-aircraft fire.  2nd Lt. Barlow managed to "ditch" the aircraft in the sea about 100 yards from land and both men reached the shore uninjured.

The report on this occurrence advises: "the aircraft was salvaged".   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 05, 2014, 12:39:28 PM
The Hon. 2nd Lt. Bernard Henry Esme Howard M.C. : 3rd Manchesters & RFC/RAF.

This gallant officer was later promoted to Captain (SR).  His home was in Greystoke Castle, Penrith and for the purpose of casualty reports, his mother Lady Mabel Howard was named NOK, her address also being recorded as Greystoke Castle.

Certain records show that he was with the Manchesters in 1915 and gained Captain's rank in 1915 whilst serving with the RFC.  His award of the M.C. was gazetted in February 1917.   He is also listed as being wounded, although no date is given in that respect.

With the amalgamation of the RFC and RAF, more details of his military service became available.   Thus, from April 1918 he served with RAF squadrons, 124,253 & 117, finally relinquishing his commission in January 1919.    There is an intriguing annotation in one of the records indicating that he served with the "French Flying Corps".

I have confined myself to what little can be obtained as to his military service, but there is considerable info. available elsewhere in respect of this brave officer's upbringing and service to the community.

It would be interesting to learn of the circumstances which resulted in the award to him of the Military Cross, his wounding and indeed, his service with the "French Flying Corps".   Help in this respect is wanted.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 08, 2014, 10:59:40 AM
RE 2nd Lieutenant H.S.Gough  (see above).

Further research reveals that Lt.Gough was killed in an accident whilst flying an Avro 504J, No. C.4334 of No. 116 Squadron RFC.   The squadron operated from the airfield at Andover and this would account for his interment at nearby Tidworth which is on the Hampshire/Wiltshire border.  The RAF station has a lot of history attached to it, not least in respect of the German attack upon it in WW2.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 21, 2014, 06:03:31 PM
              2nd Lt. Fred Poulton Whittaker : 8th Bn.Manchester Regiment & R.A.F.

This officer was killed on 25th October 1918 in a flying accident whilst based at No. 54 Training Depot Station at Fairlop near Chingford.  The circumstances surrounding the crash of his aircraft are not known, but his name is one of 14 trainee pilots included in the Station's list of deaths between July 1918 and the end of hostilities.   The Station would seem to have concentrated on the training of pilots for service with fighter squadrons and for this purpose utilised two aircraft types, namely the Avro 504 and the Sopwith Camel.   The Avro machines, used for dual instruction as well as solo flying were apparently not easy to control on "take off" and the excellent Sopwith Camel has been described as "difficult to handle".   I have been unable to discover in which type of aircraft Lt. Whittaker met his death, or indeed, as stated above, its cause - technical fault or pilot error.  The Station appears to have operated some 48 aircraft, equally divided in number between the two types and at one stage was undertaking the pilot training of 120 officers and nco's.

Lt. Whittaker is buried in Blackpool (Layton) Cemetery, Blackpool being the town in which his parents resided at the time of his death.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on September 22, 2014, 03:45:41 PM
Mack,
 Once again thanks for your info.   During this research I discovered, as you have certainly done, that there is an interesting mystery here.

My research indicated that both Hilton and his "driver" - Lt.S.T.Payne- died on the 6th April 1918. (CWGC).   "Officers Died in the Great War 1914-19" states that Hilton died on 29th April 1918.  However, notwithstanding that both aviators were flying together, Lt. Payne is indicated in that publication as dying on the 6th April 1918.

Turning to the squadron report, this indicates that on the 6th April 1918 both officers were MIA.   It also reports that both officers DOW on 29th April 1918.  Again turning to "Officers Died" it reports Hilton as being in the 16th battalion.

I do not know whether or not you have ever raised a query with the CWGC, but they are adamant that their source of material is always correct and emanates from the War Office itself.   Thus, in those circumstances, I tend to feel that not only did those brave officers die on the 6th April 1918, but also that Robert Hilton served in the 5th battalion.   (But when?).    Do you agree?  Again thanks for your input. Philip.
hello Philip
the red cross and german records state that Hilton was serving with the 16th manchesters,his ID disc was sent to the central office of effects by a german intelligence officer on 5-7-1918,a report was sent to the inspectorate of air force personell at charlottesburg on 29th april 1918,both reports state "DIED".there was nothing similar reported about payne of 15 elm cottage,marlpot hill,kent,both listed that,robert Hilton lived at 4 st.malo drive,wigan,the southport address was his parents address.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on September 23, 2014, 01:40:10 AM
as a afterthought,if Robert Hiltons ID disc was found,then they must have found a body,and also that of Lt payne,who was in the same aircraft,so why is there no record of a burial for either officer.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 23, 2014, 03:13:02 PM
Mack,

Many thanks for your continuing interest.   The Index for Wills re Hilton I have seen was uncertain as to date of death, so I have today sent for his Certificate of Death to see what that document reveals.

Your remarks were very interesting relating to the discovery of the ID disc and Hilton's body.  I suppose much depends on the severity of the crash and the incidences of fire and explosion?  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 23, 2014, 04:33:09 PM
I hope I have read Macks post correctly. Lt Payne is listed as died on the same page as 2/Lt Hilton but his name has been wrongly transcribed as Vayne. His ID Discs are not recorded as being sent to the office for effects. I am 99% sure this is the same man as there is no record of a Vayne - Lt or otherwise listed by the CWGC. Strangely enough there is only the one record for Lt Payne/Vayne as opposed to the two for 2/Lt Hilton as he must have been identified to some degree for his death to have been recorded by the German authorities. I have searched the German/ICRC records using permutations of Payne and Vayne, there are no further entries that could relate to him.
Hope this is of interest
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on September 23, 2014, 09:13:25 PM
hiya philip

the report on Robert Hilton was in german,fortunately Charlie is fluent in german and transcribed it for me.

mack ;D
ps many thanks charlie ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 24, 2014, 03:48:17 PM
Mack & Charlie,

Many thanks for your kind assistance in the matter of Lt. Hilton's death.   Whilst the Index to Wills describes his date of death as "died on or since 6th April 1918, the RAF service record for this officer is more precise and now confirms his date of death in the following fashion:

12.3.21 - "Death accepted as having occurred on 6th April 1918. (Killed in Action)."

The document also indicates that Lt.Hilton had served in the 16th Manchesters and interestingly, that before being commissioned, he had held the rank of Corporal Observer (5.2.18).  Again thanks to you both.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 27, 2014, 04:01:03 PM
            Lieutenant A.T.Heywood : Royal Flying Corps and 19th Manchesters

This officer is reported as joining the Manchester Regiment in 1914 and proceeding to France in 1915, possibly with commissioned status.  In due course, he transferred to the RFC and served with No. 45 Squadron.  It was whilst flying with this squadron in the Ypres area that he met his death on 3rd September 1917.

He had left his base at 8.15 a.m. piloting a Sopwith Camel No. B3917 and was last reported as flying west on patrol over Comines at an altitude of 4000 feet.   However, he later became engaged in a fight with enemy aircraft somewhere near Houthem at 9.25.a.m. and was shot down and killed.

Heywood's death figured in a claim by the German Air Ace Werner Voss of Jasta 10, but this claim is disputed.   Voss was shot down and killed on the 23rd September 1917 and has no known grave.  However, I understand that some recognition of his death is recorded on a panel at the German Cemetery at Langemark, although I have not seen it.

Like Werner Voss, Lt.Heywood has no known grave and thus his name is on the Flying Services Memorial at Arras.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 09, 2014, 05:09:25 PM

Lieutenant (later Captain) A.N.Solly  :  Royal Flying Corps and 26th Bn. Manchester Regiment

After the Battle of Loos it was realised that the RFC must regain superiority in the air and to this end a quite remarkable build up ensued, with the RFC by June 1916 having 27 squadrons in France.  Lt.Solly's squadron (No.23) arrived in France on the 16th March 1916 equipped with FE2b aircraft.

On the 30th April 1916,whilst on a photographic patrol over Ayette, the FE2b aircraft - No. 6345- and piloted by Lt. S.H.B. Harris with Lt. Solly as his Observer was damaged by enemy anti-aircraft fire.  Despite being wounded, Lt. Harris was able to bring the aircraft back to base and landed safely.

Lt. Solly was in action again on 31st May, this time flying in the squadron's aircraft No. 5215 in the Cambrai- Adinfer Wood area, escorting a reconnaissance patrol. On this occasion, his pilot was Captain H.Wyllie.  At 9.15 a.m. the patrol was set upon by 3 Fokker aircraft when operating at a height of between 6000 and 7000 feet.  None of the RFC aircraft were lost and there were no RFC crew casualties, but an enemy 'plane was seen to go down. The report by the commander of this patrol attributed the success of the action to the ability of the patrol to keep a tight formation.

The results of the efforts of the RFC on the 1st July 1916 have been assessed as "mixed".  Certainly the RFC had air supremecy, but contact with the artillery had been variable.

On the 1st July, Lt.Solly and his pilot, Captain Wyllie were again airborne, this time in squadron aircraft No. 5213.  They were engaged in a reconnaissance patrol with two other squadron 'planes, when at an altitude of 7000 feet over Vaulx, at shortly after 5 o'clock in the evening, they were in combat with 5 enemy aircraft.  One German machine was seen to go into a  controlled nosedive.   On their return to base, Solly's aircraft came under anti-aircraft fire and he was wounded, being hit in the thigh.

Clearly, Lt. Solly must have successfully recovered from his wounds, for he was in action again on the 13th May 1917, this time flying with No. 20 Squadron operating FE2d aircraft.   I note that during his spell recovering from his wounds he must have undergone pilot training, for his Observer/Gunner was Air Mechanic Second Class C. Beminster.  Flying squadron aircraft No. A6354 over Menin they engaged in combat at 11 a.m. with an enemy "two-seater" and shot it down, returning to base unscathed.

The CWGC record Solly's date of death as 11th August 1917 and give his rank as that of Captain.  Mention is also made of his connection with the Manchester Regiment.  One source gives the manner of his death as "killed whilst flying", which could indicate his death took place when engaged in non-operational flying.   Research indicates that he was flying with Lt.D.Y.Hay, piloting a Bristol F2B aircraft No.A7108 which crashed and both were killed.   I see that his squadron (No.20) was equipped with FE2d's around that time which may indicate that these officers were involved in some "air test" or training on a new type of 'plane at the time.   With this theory, I gain support from the fact that on the 26th  January 1917 Solly was seconded to the "Rolls Royce Works", returning to operations some three months later.   As the Bristol F2B was designed to be fitted with a Rolls Royce engine, perhaps his flight in aircraft No. A7108 had some technical purpose?

Both officers are buried in Longuenesse (St.Omer) Souvenir Cemetery.   

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 09, 2014, 05:50:53 PM
These articles may be of interest to you re Capt Solly

http://books.google.de/books?id=is-ij4XZRTIC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=bristol+f2b+a7108&source=bl&ots=25dxjw9OQ6&sig=nw2Bxs7kfpEUK-0QSZok0ggKh2k&hl=de&sa=X&ei=l7s2VNI9jO85w7KBqAw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.sole.org.uk/ansolly.htm

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 10, 2014, 04:34:51 PM
Charlie,

Very many thanks for the trouble you have taken directing me to the "links" to this gallant officer's service with the RFC etc.  Much appreciated.

He was,of course, a "Fighter Ace", his score of 9 enemy 'planes destroyed is made up of the following:- 1 Destroyed, 6-Out of control and a further 2-Out of control (shared).

Particularly interesting was to see his photograph in the "Book of Honour" where, somewhat sternly, he sits with the men of his Platoon (No. Xlll) of the 19th Manchesters.   I have him down as with the 26th Manchesters, as that battalion is recorded in Solly's RFC papers.   On that matter, I see that the 26th battalion was "a local reserve battalion formed from depot coys. of the 19th, 20th and 21st Manchesters, so that placement could account for the period he spent pending his posting to the RFC for flying duties.

With the damage to the machine's starboard wing shortly after "take off" (being a biplane I wonder if the other wing collapsed too?) and the death of the two flyers, it would be interesting to learn the details of the  Accident Board's enquiry.   I suspect that the squadron's riggers would be subject to some intense questioning.

Without doubt, Captain Solly comes over as a brave and experienced flyer, but I still wonder what his secondment to Rolls Royce was all about.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: george.theshed197 on October 10, 2014, 06:08:57 PM
Phillip.
Was there any connection with 'Handley-Page and the Handley Bomber of the early '20's post WW1 era  there was also in a somewhat later period the development of the similarly name Handley-Page Torpedo Biplane around that same period  also associated with Rolls Royce??
I can also remember one of my Uncle 's George  H. ( a former WW1 Sgt Despatch Riding Instructor A.S.C. Based at Stafford telling me about these planes in the late 1930'

Just a possibility
George

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 10, 2014, 07:56:23 PM

With the damage to the machine's starboard wing shortly after "take off" (being a biplane I wonder if the other wing collapsed too?) and the death of the two flyers, it would be interesting to learn the details of the  Accident Board's enquiry.   I suspect that the squadron's riggers would be subject to some intense questioning.
 PhilipG.

I am no aero engineer but I would have thought that even the loss of the righthand upper or lower wing would have been sufficient to make the aeroplane almost or completely uncontrollable. The "extra" lift from the lefthand side would automatically force the aeroplane into a turn with it's damaged side on the inside of the turn and that is exactly what the pilot would not want. I should imagine it would have demanded massive strength to even partially counteract it. If it is correct that the accident took place shortly after take off he would not have gained much height - the F2B - only had a climb rate of 800Ft/m, that would not have given the pilot much time to react before contact was made with the ground.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 11, 2014, 11:14:12 AM
George,

Nice to hear from you again.  I think you are possibly referring to the Handley Page 0/400 which after the Great War was modified for passenger carrying purposes.  As to the Torpedo Biplane of the 1930's, perhaps you are thinking of the Fairey Aviation "Swordfish" of "Bismarck" fame, affectionally known as the "Stringbag" and produced at Heaton Chapel, Stockport?   Take care. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 11, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
Charlie,
Thanks for your observations.   I could not agree with you more.  Incidentally, my reference to the "other wing" was referring to the remaining wing on the starboard side of the aircraft.  One tends to suppose that the collapsing of either one of these two wings, by reason of their connection by the struts, would affect the other.  I can visualise the machine, shortly after getting airborne, going into an uncontrollable spin, possibly being made even worse by an inability to "throttle back", leading to an horrendous crash with the inevitable deaths of the two gallant officers.

As a "driver-airframe" in WW2, I always considered that, apart from getting into an inverted spin (very dangerous), a "take off" was also a period of some disquiet, for an engine failure etc. at that time could cause a problem.  Fortunately, my "take offs" (and landings) on balance must have been satisfactory for I am still here!  Regards. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: george.theshed197 on October 11, 2014, 06:27:33 PM
Hi again Phillip.
Yes good to chat, No - I can remember the old 'Stringbag Kite' so I am not being confused by that; the one I was thinking about came around about the same time as the Blackburn Dart and refering back to my notes ( from my Family History period) was named as the Type T, the H.P.19, powered by the Napier Lion engine. Again referring back, it seems that three prototypes were built - the first being a somewhat unstable, was modified  but still wasn't successful and by the time the third model was ready the Blackburn designed Swift was accepted and on order.
I should have just gone back to my old notes add not just relied on my bonce, however.
Take care and thanks again. Phillip.
George.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 18, 2014, 04:20:20 PM
Lieutenant Cecil W.Hardman : 23rd Manchesters & 70 Squadron Royal Flying Corps.

This officer was "killed whilst flying" on the 21st September 1916 "somewhere on the Western Front".  He was flying in a Sopwith "Strutter" aircraft No. A1915 with 2nd Lieutenant V.L. Morgan as pilot, Lt. Hardman occupying the machine's rear cockpit.  As to what duties the flyers were undertaking is not clear, but both airmen died and are buried in adjacent graves in the Gezaincourt Com. Cem. Extn.   I note that the squadron list of deaths numbers 84 men, including Lts. Hardman and Morgan.
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on October 18, 2014, 05:33:34 PM
Hi Philip

From the GWF.

According to the Casualty Book (AIR1/967) and Casualty Report (AIR1/845), Hardman and his pilot, 2nd Lt Vernon Leslie Morgan, were killed on 21 September 1916 when Strutter A1915 stalled and nose-dived at about 150ft just after taking off on a practice flight.  Morgan is buried in Gezaincourt Communal Cemetery Extension, grave reference I. F. 10.

I think your wrong about him being a Manchester though.

CWGC entry.

Rank: Lieutenant
Date of Death: 21/09/1916
Age:28
Regiment/Service: Royal Flying Corps
70th Sqdn. and 23rd Bn. Middlesex Regiment
Grave Reference: I. F. 11.
Cemetery: GEZAINCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
Additional Information:
Son of William Stevens Hardman and Florence Elizabeth Hardman, of 74, Hertford Rd., East Finchley, London.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 19, 2014, 12:49:54 PM
Timberman,

First of all, many thanks for going to the trouble of finding out what happened to the Sopwith Strutter crew.  It would seem Morgan was not watching his airspeed indicator - with predictable results.  My "0ppo", a Nottingham lad, stalled and "spun in" in similar circumstances over 70 years ago, age 18 years.  Very sad.  He lies " in some corner of a foreign field".

Re your doubts about C.W.Hardman being an officer in the Manchester Regiment.  I can understand your uncertainty in this matter, for I was initially thrown too, by the CWGC and their GRU records.  However, I suggest we are on firm ground here regarding Hardman being commissioned in the Manchesters, insofar as the Medal Record Card places him in that regiment and leaving for France on 4th May 1916.   The back of the card gives the name and address of the officer's next of kin, which is exactly the same as the one quoted by the CWGC.

For further details of this officer I went to my copy of "Officers Died in the Great War 1914-1919", to find that he is listed there on page 154 of that book.   The details are:-

Cecil William Hardman, 23 Manchesters, Tempy. Lt., Kia 21.9.16 (and RFC).

I would value your views on this interesting matter.  Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on October 19, 2014, 06:46:05 PM

You right on both counts

MIC Manchester
and
SDGW Manchester

The only thing is!!

on the MIC
He is listed on the Middlesex Regiment Roll

Roll officer/107 Page 6D?

So is a bit of a mystery.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 21, 2014, 11:38:06 AM
2nd Lieutenant Arthur Boon, No. 37 Reserve Squadron RFC & 7th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

This officer was born in Stockport and in November 1914 joined the ranks of the 7th Manchesters, ultimately being selected for a commission in the same regiment.   In due course he transferred to the RFC for aircrew duties.   The records have him as serving in No. 37 Reserve Squadron and also in No. 37 Training Squadron, where his name is included in the list of twelve airmen who lost their lives whilst with the Training Squadron.

Lt. Boon was "killed whilst flying" on 29th March 1917, piloting a RE 8 type aircraft.    Although this 'plane was a "two-seater", there is no indication as to whether or not he was flying "solo".  It is understood that the RE 8 was "difficult to fly" and it may be, that at that particular point in his training, he had not reached the stage where he had fully mastered the technique to overcome the apparent instability of the aircraft, a defect which caused some flyers to call the machine "unsafe"!

Lt. Boon is buried in Coventry (London Road) Cemetery, which is apparently not far from the former airfield.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 01, 2014, 09:56:45 AM
               2nd Lieutenant F.E.Vipond :  Manchester Regiment & Royal Flying Corps

On the 27th June 1917, 2nd Lt. Vipond, together with his Observer 2nd Lt.  G.P.Simon was detailed to carry out a photo-reconnaissance over St.Julien, flying in a No. 7 Squadron BE2e aircraft No. A2800.  They took off at 5.15 p.m. and were seen flying over enemy lines.  However, their aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and crashed in the German lines at around 6.35 p.m.   Both officers were initially reported as MIA, but subsequently it was established that they had been taken prisoner by the enemy.

The battalion of the Manchester Regiment in which Lt. Vipond previously served is not known.

(There had been political pressure put upon the RFC, insofar as there had been air raids over London by German Gothas which had caused heavy casualties.   As a result, squadrons were transferred to Calais and to England by the RFC in order to combat the bombing raids.  The Germans knew of these movements and took advantage of the situation until fresh arrangements could be made by the RFC some time later.)    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 01, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
There is no mention of his Battalion in the ICRC records, he is given as being captured at St Julien. As a PoW he is given as being on 19.07.17 at the officers camp at Karlsruhe having been transferred there from D�lmen and on 11.12.1917 at Holzminden.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 02, 2014, 08:09:09 AM
Charlie,

Thank you for that information. I wonder if your records cover the fate of his Observer - 2nd Lt. G.P.Simon?   If so, it would perhaps be pleasant for them to be together until repatriation at the end of the war, although my very inadequate records suggest that they were parted.   Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 02, 2014, 11:17:45 AM
Hello Phillip,
It would appear that they stayed together till early 1918 when 2/Lt Simon was transferred to a camp at Schweidnitz on 19 January. Today Schweidnitz is a town in Lower Silesia, Poland. 2/Lt Simon is recorded as being captured uninjured.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 02, 2014, 03:47:42 PM
Charlie,

Thank you. I suppose if you have to go into a POW camp it would be preferable to do so with your "oppo". Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 02, 2014, 07:12:59 PM
Phillip,
I don't know if you aware but there is a photo of him and his wife post war here:

http://karenphotographs.com/afamilyalbum/dora_fred.htm

His younger brother Hugh was KiA while serving with the 1/6th Bn

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/files/names_combined_R-V.csv  among other information gives him as 9Bn TF

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 05, 2014, 08:06:12 AM
Charlie,

Thanks for your further contribution. Fascinating!  The question of the battalion of the Manchesters in which he served you have solved, too.  Great. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 03, 2014, 03:19:28 PM
 
         Lieutenant Arthur Westall  RAF : formerly of the 8th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

The 28th September 1918 saw the beginning of the last campaign in Flanders, a campaign mounted by the Allies to break the fighting ability and morale of a weakened German Army.  The RAF took an active part in this undertaking, including No.7 Squadron of the 2nd (Corps) Wing, Lt. Westall being an Observer in this squadron.   The unit was equipped with RE8 type aircraft and in company with his pilot, 2nd. Lt. J.A.G. Henry and flying in aircraft No. E273, Westall and Henry were airborne at 2.15 p.m. on the 28th September having been ordered to carry out a Combat Air Patrol.

During this patrol they were in combat with enemy aircraft and were shot down over the Belgian Army lines, crashing into a shell hole.   Lt Westall was wounded, but his pilot was killed in the crash.    Lt. Henry is buried in Bleuet Farm, near Ypres.

Lt. Westall was evacuated to England five days after the crash and it could be construed  that his wounds were quite serious, for the records show that he was in Nell Lane Military Hospital (Manchester)in July 1919 and that he was still feeling the effects of his wounds in the following year.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 16, 2014, 11:33:13 AM
                                         Captain Robert Reeder :  Royal Flying Corps & 10th Manchester Regt.

The records reveal that this officer was "killed whilst flying", a statement which could cover a high proportion of deaths in the RFC and RAF.   However, I discovered that when he was killed he was serving in No. 6 Squadron RFC, which from one source is quoted as being a "Corps Squadron" and which at the time of his death appeared to be operating with RE8 aircraft.   The designation of "Corps Squadron" suggested that the unit was one which was called into action only in connection with major attacks, e.g. the attack on the Hindenburg line on the 29th September 1918.  Nevertheless, some 67 deaths, including that of Captain Reeder, were incurred during operations by the squadron, a number which suggests some aerial fighting took place from time to time.

Captain Reeder is listed by the CWGC as holding the appointment of Flight Commander, which could indicate that he was an experienced flyer, but the circumstances in which he died on the 6th January 1918 have escaped my efforts at research.

It would be helpful to learn more about a "Corps Squadron" and certainly, the circumstances of Captain Reeder's untimely death.

He is buried in Doullens Communal Cem. Extn. No. 1.

PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on December 16, 2014, 04:10:30 PM
Philip
I understand a Corps Squadron to be one that is employed on artillery spotting, reconnaissance duties etc.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 17, 2014, 07:49:09 AM
Charlie,

Many thanks for that info. Take care. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 19, 2014, 05:06:46 PM
                                      Lieutenant Robert Jacomb Norris Dale : 9th Manchesters and RFC

As a civilian, this officer was the Managing Clerk with the legal firm of Dale & Co of Cornhill, London, having been "admitted" in December 1909.   He enrolled as a private soldier at the commencement of hostilities, joining the Artists's Rifles and being given the Regimental Number - 1656.   By June 1915 he had finished his cadet training and was commissioned in the 9th Manchesters in the rank of 2nd Lieutenant.   In due course, he was promoted to Lieutenant and received a transfer to the Royal Flying Corps serving in Italy with No. 33 Kite Balloon Section, a component of the 9th Balloon Company, the other component being No. 7 Kite Balloon Section.   It was whilst serving as an Observer with No. 33 KBS that he was killed on 31st January 1918.  He is buried in Giavera British Cemetery, Arcade.

His obituary reports that he served in Gallipoli and Egypt as well as in Italy, but I have not been able to confirm that as being correct.

The records state that the location of No. 33 KBS is "not known", but I would suggest that it was in the region of Montello Hill, the scene of the June 1918 battle.

(It would appear that Lt. Dale was the subject of research on the Forum in the past, involving "Timberman" and "Mack", but I have not been able to locate the whereabouts of the thread.)    PhilipG.
 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on December 19, 2014, 10:30:43 PM
Hi Philip

This is the link to Lieutenant Robert Jacomb Norris Dale
topic.

 http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=5190.0

Also a bit on this link.

http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=5865.0

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on December 19, 2014, 11:43:47 PM
Philip
A bit of an up date :)

This is the record of Dale�s death.

The man responsible for bringing down balloon No 33
was Leutnant Hans von Feden, Jasta 1. Jasta 1 was
operating from San Fior, Italy, in support of 14 Armee.

Dale died on the 31.1.1918 his Balloon was shot down
by Von Feden over Volpago at 4:00 pm

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 20, 2014, 03:42:52 PM
Timberman,

Many thanks.   Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 23, 2014, 04:25:09 PM
                                          Captain Richard Bentham : Royal Flying Corps & 2/7th Manchester Regiment

This officer was "killed whilst flying", although another source has his death on 8th November 1916 as "Killed (Accident)."  He was based at the Central Flying School (CFS) at Upavon in Wiltshire and his death occurred whilst piloting a DH2 type aircraft No.5982.

He is buried in Newchurch - in - Pendle (St.Mary) Churchyard, Lancashire.

I have not been able to discover at what stage during his military career Bentham achieved his captaincy, but at present I have assumed that his rank indicates that he was CFS staff and not a trainee pilot.   I could be wrong in this connection, of course.

In passing, I discovered that the number of All Ranks deaths at the CFS during the war numbered 86, including that of Captain Bentham.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 31, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
                      Lieutenant (later Captain) Clarence Edward Williamson-Jones DFC : 1st Bn. Manchester Regiment, RFC & RAF

This officer was commissioned on 20th March 1915 into the 1st Manchesters and had a distinguished military career serving not only in the Manchesters, but on operational flying duties with both the RFC and RAF.  He continued to serve in the RAF after the Great War and beyond, reaching the rank of Group Captain.  He died in 1977.

He can be traced as Cadet No.1410 serving with the Artists' Rifles early in the Great War and following his commissioning as a 2nd Lieutenant joining his battalion in the Salient shortly before the Second Battle of Ypres, a battle which commenced on the 21st April 1915.  The 1st Manchesters were part of the Jullundur Brigade of the Lahore Division, taking up positions on the 26th April with their right flank on a farm west of Wieltje, the objective being the enemy trenches about 1000 yards north of them.  Even on their way to the Start Line, the Brigade met severe enemy fire as they marched past the moat to the south of Ypres town, the 40th Pathans, for instance, suffering some 22 casualties.   

The attack commenced at 1.20.p.m. being covered by the British artillery bombardment, but nevertheless the advancing troops met enemy fire of every kind and casualties were heavy, in the case of No. 1 Company four officers, including Williamson-Jones being wounded.  The Manchesters' splendid reputation during the battle had been confirmed, but the cost to the battalion was heavy, for total casualties amounted to the death of the battalion CO - Lt. Col. Hitchins  - and 15 men, 217 All Ranks wounded and 56 men missing. (It was in this battle that Acting Corporal Issy Smith won his Victoria Cross).

As regards Williamson-Jones, his military future was to lie with the Royal Flying Corps and later with the Royal Air Force.

Continuing research revealed a reference to him flying a contact patrol on the opening day of the Battle of Messines (7th June 1917), when operating with a RE8 type aircraft of No. 6 Squadron RFC and being wounded in the leg.   The role of the RFC in that battle is praised, especially in connection with contact patrolling and Counter-Battery work.

By May 1918 Williamson-Jones was serving with No. 59 Squadron RAF.  On the second day of that month he was returning to base after a patrol involving photographic work, flying a RE8 machine No. C5048 with Acting Lieutenant B. Instone as Observer.   It appears that Williamson-Jones' final approach to the airfield was misjudged and the normal remedy of the application of an appropriate amount of "throttle" failed as the engine "cut out".
The aircraft therefore crashed short of the aerodrome "nose down" in a trench, neither Lt. Williamson-Jones nor his Observer suffering injury.

PhilipG.
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 31, 2014, 12:13:24 PM
                                                                     
                                                                Captain Williamson-Jones DFC

                   The citation for this officer's award of the Distinguished Flying Cross is given below:-

"Over Boursies, 22nd March 1918; Near Beaumetz 3rd March 1918, and many other occasions elsewhere.   This officer has completed over fifty GB shoots, frequently under adverse weather conditions, and in the face of severe opposition from aeroplanes and anti-aircraft fire.  The success of these operations was in many cases mainly due to his courage and perseverance.  On one occasion, flying at 2000 feet, he held up for a time the advance of hostile infantry."
PhilipG.





                                                             
               
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 31, 2014, 12:51:35 PM
                                                 Captain Williamson-Jones' DFC citation.

The reference in the citation to "GB shoots" I find puzzling. I wonder if this is a misprint and should read "CB" which is an abbreviation for "Counter-Battery"?  Suggestions wanted, please. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on January 04, 2015, 10:28:00 AM
Philip not sure if you have this officer
had a quick look but could not see him.

This is all I got.
Charles Arthur Morris
Pte 2056 Man Reg
2nd Lieut Liverpool Reg and RFC

He got his commission Nov 1917

1915 Star issued by The Manchester's
Vic and Brit medals issued by RFC

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 04, 2015, 12:22:53 PM
Timberman,

Thank you. I will see what I can trace. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on January 09, 2015, 07:51:08 AM
hiya phillip
these two officers were both transferred to the RFC.

2/Lt George,william Williamson,2nd manchesters,was reported killed after leading a assault on german trenches on 9th December 1914,along with two of his men,one man was wounded and three missing,but he was very much alive and kicking.
he returned to England and passed his aero club flying certificate at the military school,birmingham on 31-3-1916,became a major in the RFC
awarded MC,gazetted 18-2-15,MID 17-2-15 and the OBE
resided broad rd,sale
occupation.electrical inspector for a boiler insurance company
parents hugh+mary

his brother 2/Lt hugh albert Williamson formerly 2/Lt in the Manchester regt was reported missing on 2-7-16 aged 29,serving with 34th squadron.also MIDs.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 09, 2015, 06:02:40 PM
Mack,
Thank you for that further info.  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 12, 2015, 08:10:45 AM
                                    Lieutenant Richard Austin Spencer : 4th Battalion Manchester Regt.  RFC & RAF

This officer was commissioned into the Manchesters on 22.11.16 and later transferred to the Royal Flying Corps.   I have been able to locate him in the RAF records, flying on air operations with No.59 Squadron on the 6th November 1918.

The 4th November 1918 is recognised as the day that the last big air combat of the Great War between the RAF and the German Air Force took place, a day when RAF casualties were heavy, but a day when the enemy air force could no longer have any effect on the advance of the British forces.

However, RAF aircraft continued to be shot down and Lt. Spencer was one of the victims claimed by the enemy on the 6th November.  Together with his Observer Lt. W.F.Wilson, he was airborne in a RE8 type aircraft No. C2529 engaged in "Counter-attack patrolling" east of the Sambre River.  They were attacked by hostile aircraft during which the machine's controls were shot away and the crew were forced to land.  Neither Lt. Spencer nor Lt Wilson were wounded.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 15, 2015, 11:21:47 AM
            2nd Lieutenant (later Major) George William Williamson OBE., MC., M.Inst.C.E., M.I.Mech.E., F.R.Ae.S., 2nd Battalion Manchester Regiment
                                                                 and Group Captain (Retd.) Royal Air Force. 

As "Mack" has indicated, this officer was reported in the Regimental History as being killed in action.  Nothing was further from the truth as  indeed,"Mack" so reported, for later in the war there is brief mention in the records of Williamson transferring to the RAF and taking command in the rank of Major of No. 15 Aircraft Acceptance Park. (AAP).

Williamson joined the 2nd Manchesters on the 25th October 1914 just east of Festubert accompanied by reinforcements of 77 men.   By early December, the battalion was in the line near Wulverghem and it was there that he led a night reconnaissance patrol which located the German trench lines.   Two days later leading a patrol of of 45 men, he attacked these same trenches, but through various circumstances the patrol was forced to retreat, in doing so incurring five casualties, one of which was Williamson who was wounded.  The date was the 9th December.   I surmise that this was the action, amongst others, which resulted in the award to him of the Military Cross.     

A period with the 3rd battalion in the rank of Captain seemed to ensue, followed in due course by his transfer to the RAF.  I have been unable to ascertain the location of No. 15 AAP, but it seems possible it was UK based.   No doubt Williamson's engineering expertise fitted him for his new appointment.  This can be confirmed by his involvement in the inter-war years with cockpit arrangement and display of those dials necessary to assist the pilot in "blind flying", e.g. "Artificial Horizon", "Turn & Bank" etc.

PhilipG.     
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on January 15, 2015, 01:32:57 PM
Hello Philip,
15 AAP was located in the Didsbury/Alexander Park area. It was established in 1918 and accepted aircraft from the local manufacturers - mainly AVRO.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 15, 2015, 04:27:01 PM
Charlie,


Thank you for that contribution. I know the location having worked there in 1947. Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 15, 2015, 04:42:56 PM
                                                                Captain C.E.Williamson-Jones DFC

I write in connection with the recent reference in this officer's DFC citation to the meaning of "GB Shoots" .  I am pleased to report that Woolwich advise me that "GB Shoots" is a reference to GUN BEARING SHOOTS.

As this exercise involves flying in a relative static location at a low altitude giving compass bearings to the ground batteries, the award of the DFC mentioned above suggests to me that it was well-deserved.
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 16, 2015, 10:43:09 AM
                                   Lieutenant F. Leach 1/8th Battalion Manchester Regiment & Royal Air Force.

I have not found it possible to discover anything of this officer's military career with the RAF which appears to have taken place in India.   His death is recorded by the CWGC as being on the 16th June 1918 and they have placed his name on the Kirkee 1914-1918 Memorial located near Poona.   This would appear to indicate that he has no grave.

However, the CWGC it seems have, through circumstances beyond their control, been forced to abandon many graves in India and it may be in the case of this airman that particular procedure had to be followed.    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 22, 2015, 11:54:49 AM

The Magazine of the Manchester Warehousemen and Clerks' Schools for November 1917 has the following entry therein:-

"Corporal G.R.Heeley, 17 Eldon Square, Reading, after twenty months with the Manchesters, has been transferred to the RFC." 

Alas, it does not indicate in what capacity he will be serving with the RFC.   As regards his previous service with "the Manchesters", I wonder if his battalion can be traced?   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on January 22, 2015, 04:48:08 PM
Philip,
3186 Pt G H Heeley received 1914-15 Star with 1/6th Bttn (14/8/15 2b) and is shown on the Roll as transferred to RAF 14/6/16.
His MIC gives the first name as George and RAF No as 26067.  The BWM/VM Roll names him George Haynes Heeley. His medals were unclaimed. 

Brother 2637 Arthur Edward Heeley was killed:-
Killed in action 23 Sep 1915 at Gallipoli. Buried at TWELVE TREE COPSE CEMETERY, Turkey.  Born 24/11/1893.  Son of late Arthur Heeley and Elizabeth Heeley, of  4 Norbreck Avenue, Chorlton-cum-Hardy.  Resident Waterloo, Liverpool.  Estate left to his mother and Thomas Wilkinson, cotton goods manufacturer. �Mentioned in the Battalion War Diary as having �behaved very gallantly�,Sept 20th 1915. �Letter received giving particulars of the death� �He was shot by a sniper whilst crawling from the bombing pit to his dug-out. There were five of them who had been throwing these bombs, and he was the last to leave. He was killed instantly. You will be proud to hear that the Colonel has recommended him for the D.C.M.; but as so many are recommended and nothing is heard further of it, we are not thinking any more about it.� � (Nov 1915 School Mag, p17-18) �Stanley Cooke was one of the men� �Bombs were flying thickly and I had some narrow shaves. Poor Ted Heeley met his death about 5:30am, shot through the head.� (6th Battalion the Manchester Regiment in the Great War � John Hartley, p135)

I've only seen a few extracts from the WACOS Magazine.  Are they on-line somewhere I haven't spotted?  My Grandad was a foundationer with his brother & sister.

Tim
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on January 22, 2015, 08:54:46 PM
John Edwin Herbert Chadwick
2nd Lieut 2/6th Bn
Transferred to RFC
possibly an observer with number 2 Sqn

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 23, 2015, 12:55:54 PM
Tim,
Thank you & how sad. The mags. are in a book.

Timberman, Thanks to your post I think I have found the officer you mention.  Thank you.
 PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 23, 2015, 03:56:46 PM
                                                      Corporal G.H.Heeley  1/6th Manchesters.

As regards this NCO, it would now appear that initially his transfer to the RFC was to undertake duties as a clerk, but later he was commissioned, presumably in the RAF for non-flying duties.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 24, 2015, 01:10:14 PM
                                  2nd Lieutenant J.E.H.Chadwick : 2/6th Manchester Regt. & No. 2 Squadron RFC

I have traced this officer to some flying operations in which he was engaged when acting as an Observer on the 10th October 1915 and also on the 11th November of that year.

October 1915 established the superiority of the Fokker E-Type aircraft, an aircraft whose capabilities the Germans were able to exploit in the air to the disadvantage of the RFC, particularly by Immelmann, (the inventor of the manoeuvre "Immelmann Turn" or "roll off the top", the 10th October being the occasion of his 4th "victory").

On the afternoon of the 10th October, Lt. Chadwick was airborne in a BE2c aircraft No.1703 over what appears to be the La Bassee front, with Captain Babington piloting their machine.  Their flying duties were classed as "Air Observation".   At 3.15 p.m. whilst flying at an altitude of 8000 feet, they were in combat with a Fokker aircraft, the result of which was inconclusive and Babington and Chadwick returned safely to base.

On the 11th November the two flyers were again in the air in BE2c No.1703, this time in the morning and engaged on photographic operations.  They had reached a height of 7000 feet when they fired on three enemy Albatros machines, the engagement being inconclusive.  Babington and Chadwick later returned to their airfield with their machine undamaged.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Pete Th on January 25, 2015, 03:12:04 PM
The War Diaries of the 11th Battalion include the following entry for 31st December 1917

"2/Lt H.W. Cattrall to RFC"
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 26, 2015, 07:54:42 AM
Pete,

Thank you. I will see if I can find anything about him at this end. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 26, 2015, 12:16:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                 Lieutenant F. Leach : 1/8th battalion Manchester Regiment & RAF (additional)       
   
Further research into the military career of this officer (see previous post), now reveals that he was an employee of the Central Argentine Railway in Rosario and that his forename was "Frederick".  He left the country on the 20th November 1914 and joined the Hon. Artillery Company in England.  It would seem that in due time he obtained a commission in the Manchesters, subsequently transferring to the RAF.

The notice concerning his death states that he was "killed in action".  However, it now seems that his RAF appointment was that of "Equipment Officer" and that he died of heatstroke on the 16.6.18 and was buried in Bombay, India. He was 29 years of age. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 29, 2015, 03:59:15 PM
                                        2nd Lt. Henry Leslie Cooper Morley : 1/8th Manchesters & later Captain RFC

I have not been able to trace some of the details of the military career of this officer, but it would appear that he was serving in Egypt in November 1914.   There is no indication that he was engaged with the RFC in flying operations, so it may be that his contribution to the Junior Service was in a supporting role.  Post-war, he gives a forwarding address in Buenos Aires, but his name does not appear in the "Register of Volunteers from Argentina".  It would interesting to learn of his civilian occupation which required him to join Messrs.Bartlome Fritre in that city in May 1920.

As regards his service with the 1/8th Manchesters, this battalion sailed for Egypt on the 10th September 1914, arriving there on the 25th September of that year.   The records state that Morley joined (or even re-joined) the battalion on the 4th November, suggesting to me that he was already in some employment requiring him to work in Egypt.

A further question could be posed as to whether or not he went to Gallipoli with the battalion and was wounded, for there is evidence of the issue to him of a SWB.  An interesting case.   PhilipG.


Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 07, 2015, 03:45:35 PM
                                      Captain A.G.Moore AFC (later Major) Manchester Regiment and RFC.

Despite an intensive search, I have not been able to discover either in which battalion of the Manchester Regiment this officer served or the details of the award to him of the Air Force Cross.

Upon his transfer to the RFC, Captain Moore was posted to No. 14 Squadron which had been formed on the 3rd February 1915, the unit departing for the Middle East in November of that year.  However, before that squadron's departure, Captain Moore was transferred to No. 24 Squadron RFC where he was briefly made Commanding Officer, a unit which was being formed at Hounslow Heath airfield, he taking up this appointment on the 1st September 1915 prior to his posting to France on the 23rd September.

An interesting aside is that Moore handed over his command of the squadron to Major L.G.Hawker, an "air ace" and a recipient of the VC and DSO.   This intrepid airman was killed in action on the 23rd November 1916, a victim of the German "air ace" Manfred von Richthofen.

Captain Moore, this time with the acting rank of Major, again took command of No. 24 Squadron RFC on the 23rd March 1917, finally relinquishing this command in August 1917.  The records indicate that he was still serving in April 1918 when the RFC became the RAF.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Robert Bonner on February 07, 2015, 04:32:04 PM
2nd Lt. Henry Leslie Cooper Morley : 1/8th Manchesters & later Captain RFC

Philip.
Confirmation that your man was at Gallipoli.

The Ardwicks and 7th Manchesters, their comrades from the Burlington Street Battalion, landed under heavy fire from the Turkish guns on 7 May 1915 at ‘W’ and ‘V’ beaches sustaining a few casualties.  The battalion remained in the front line trenches under constant fire from snipers in the trees and dense brushwood close to the trenches and Lieutenant Morley was wounded on the 15th.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 07, 2015, 04:40:58 PM
Thank you Robert for that information.  Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 07, 2015, 05:02:19 PM
Phillip, this thread on the GWF
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194735

Gives Capt Moore as a flight commander with 14 Reserve Sqn in March 1916 and also that he was 4th Bn.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on February 07, 2015, 07:20:51 PM
Captain A.G.Moore AFC (later Major) Manchester Regiment and RFC.

Philip

This is what I have on this Officer.

He joined the 4th Bn Manchester Regiment 22 April 1905

I think this is him

The Welsh Regiment,  A. G.
Moore to be Captain, vice G. P. Hoggan,
seconded. Dated 10th March, 1904.

He is listed as 4th Bn all through the war.
From 1916 he is listed as Serving under Air Ministry
He went to France 16/09/1915. No mention of the Bn he was with.
He was entitled to the 1914-15 star, Victory and British medals.
At some stage he was awarded the MC but I can't find any
mention in the LG
I can't find any mention of the AFC either.

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 24 OCTOBER, 1919,

28th Sept. 1919.
Lt. 'F. H. Allchurch.
-2n� Lt. F. W. Ball.
�Lt. .E. P. Oavanah.
'2nd Lt. E. R. Clayton.
capt. A. G. Moore.
'2nd Lit. W. M. Munshaw.
"Lt. C. Seedhouse.

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 21 JUNE, 1916.
MID
Royal Flying Corps.
Bt. Maj. A. J. Ross, R.E.
'Capt. .A. G. Moore, Manch. R. (Spec. Res.).
'Temp. Capt. H. A. Van Ryneveld.
ILt. (temp. Capt. in Army) R. J. Tipton,
R.F.A. (T.F.).

L G SATURDAY, 24 MARCH, 1917.

ROYAL FLYING CORPS.
Mil. Wing.�The undermentioned appts. � are
made: � � . �
Sqdn. Comdrs.�From Flight Comdrs., and to>
be temp. Majors whilst so empld.�
Lt. (temp. Capt.) A. J. L. Scott, Suss,
Yeo., T.F. 6th Mar. 1917.
Capt. A. G. Moore, M.C., Manch. R.,
Spec. Res. 23rd Mar. 1917.

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 7 FEBRUARY, 1916.

ESTABLISHMENTS.
ROYAL FLYING CORPS.
Military Wing'.
The undermentioned appointments are
made: �
Flight Commanders�
From Flying Officers.
Dated 27th January, 1916.
Captain A. G. Moore, The Manchester
Regiment, Special Reserve.
Captain , Charles R. S. Bradley, 4th
Cavalry, Indian Army.

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 22 JULY, 1915.

ESTABLISHMENTS.
ROYAL FLYING CORPS.
Military Wing.
The undermentioned appointments are
made: �
Flying Officers�
Temporary Second Lieutenant P. B.
Brown, 8th (Service) Battalion, The' South
Staffordshire Regiment, and to be transferred
to the General List. Dated 30th June,
1915.
Dated 2nd July, 1915.
Captain A. G. Moore, 4th Battalion
(Extra Reserve), The Manchester Regiment,
and to be seconded.
Second Lieutenant D. S. Jillings, The
Prince of Wales's Own (West Yorkshire
Regiment).
Second Lieutenant S. T. Saunderson,
North Irish Horse, Special Reserve, and to
be seconded.

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 JULY, 1918.

FLYING BBANCH.
The undermentioned Capts. to be temp.
Majs. whilst empld. as Majs. (A. & S.) : �
P. Huskinson. 23rd June 1918.
! 1st July 1918.
B. E. Baker, D.S.O., M.C.
G. C. Bailey, D.S.O.
J. C. Griffiths.
H. Heming.
R. E. A. W. Hughes-Chamberlain.
T. R. Irons.
H. W.,G. Jones, M.C.
R. N. JRfo'ntagu-Stuart-Wortley.
D. O. kulholland.
A. G. Moore, M.C.
R. B. .Mansell.
A. D. Pearce.

The following officers have held command of No. 24 Squadron:
�   1 September 1915, Captain A G Moore
�   29 September 1915, Major L G Hawker
�   29 November 1916, Major C E Rabagliati
�   23 March 1917, Major A G Moore
�   22 August 1917, Major J G Swart

Timberman



Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 07, 2015, 08:03:04 PM
To Charlie I would say :
"Thank you for the information which has clarified the position.  The action of the clerk's recording of 14 Reserve Squadron as 14 Squadron on the MIC has contributed greatly to the confusion."

To Timberman I would say: "There's nothing more to say - you have said it all!!!!!!. "    You have done some wonderful research. Thank you.

To conclude - thanks again to both of you. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on February 07, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
Your welcome Philip,
Next to the Manchester's the RAF comes
a close 1st ;D ;D

Have you got a list of the Officers on this thread,
if not I'll compile one and post it at the front.

One if you don't have him.

From the GWF

 2Lt RF Sinclair 14Bn Manchester Regt attached.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 08, 2015, 08:05:44 AM
Timberman,

It would be an excellent idea to compile a list as a kind of index.My list is in long hand. Sinclair is already in the "in tray".   Thanks. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 08, 2015, 05:16:08 PM
Capt Moore
From the Quarterly Army List for the quarter ending 31.12.1919:

(r)Moore AG (Capt 4 Bn Manch R)
S Africa War 1901-02. Operations in Orange River Colony July 01 to 31 May 02. Queens Medal with 3 clasps.
The war of 1914-19 Despatches, LG 21 Jun and 20 Oct 1916. MC & clasp to MC

MC LG 02.06.1916 Capt Alfred Garnet Moore Spec Res Manch R attd RFC.

Bar to MC LG 20.10.1916  Capt Alfred Garnet Moore MC Spec Res Manch R and RFC
For conspicuous gallantry  and skill. While fighting he had several wires shot away and his main spar damaged. His machine went into a spinning nose dive. Nevertheless he finally managed to get some sort of control and landed safely in an aerodrome

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 12, 2015, 07:00:20 AM
Charlie,,

Thank you. Quite a flyer. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 17, 2015, 12:02:06 PM
                                    Lt. John Edward Martin Evans : 8th Bn. Manchester Regt. & No. 48 Squadron RFC.

Information on this airman is sparse.  The records state that he was a RFC Observer with No. 48 Squadron and that he was "killed whilst flying", a statement which fails to indicate exactly what took place and with whom he was flying.   However, at the time of his death on the 9th February 1918 he was airborne in a Bristol F2B type aircraft whose number was B 1210 and I have assumed that his pilot survived the incident.  Evans is buried in Roye New British Cemetery which lies south of St. Quentin.

As regards No. 48 Squadron, research revealed some interesting facts.  Firstly, it is reported that Keith Park of "Battle of Britain" fame was one of its Flight Commanders during Evans' service with the squadron and that Park was a "Fighter Ace" with 20 successes.  The whole squadron "had 32 aces serve in it".   Quite a record.

From this list of "aces"  one name caught my attention.  It was that of Captain John Herbert Towne Letts who by 1918 was then serving with No. 64 Squadron RAF.  A graduate of Sandhurst and the Central Flying School, he seemed to have had a moment of reckless over-confidence which resulted in his death on the 11th October 1918.

He took off in another squadron's SE5A aircraft and immediately the machine was airborne attempted to carry out a slow roll.    With insufficient height for such a manoeuvre, the result was inevitable and in the resultant crash to the ground he was killed instantly.   PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 19, 2015, 02:33:19 PM
Hello Philip

Lt Evans

Lt Evans died of injuries sustained after his pilot 2/Lt FR Hunt attempted a forced landing on a ploughed field near Flez, during which the aircraft overturned. The forced landing was due to engine failure. They had been employed on a "camera co-op" sortie - I presume this is old terminology for photo-reconaissance. 2/Lt Hunt survived.

Map reference for crash site 62cV28A http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4060/-/collection

This was not the first time Lt Evans had been involved in a landing incident. On 12.11.1917, again in a Bristol Fighter of 48 Sqn (A7155), after losing their way after an offensive patrol in the Dixmunde area, his pilot 2/Lt JWD Needham had to make a forced landing at Neales near Etaples. This was carried out in the dark and in adverse weather conditions. Both officers were injured, 2/Lt Needham fatally, the aircraft was wrecked.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 20, 2015, 10:55:05 AM
Charlie,

Thanks for that interesting contribution. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 21, 2015, 04:23:25 PM
                           Lieutenant W.R.Freeman (Major W.R.Freeman : 2nd Manchesters & No. 2 Squadron RFC).

I have been reviewing the information on this site in respect of the above named officer, paying particular reference to Robert Bonner's post on the 12th August 2014 and also to my contribution of the 13th August and that of "themonsstar" of the same date. (Page 4).  Thus, it now seems clear, that when last year I was recording the flying exploits of this gallant officer during 1914, I was in fact writing about a distinguished airman who was, in the passage of time, to achieve the rank of Air Chief Marshal - namely, Sir Wilfrid Rhodes Freeman, Bart.,RAF.  His awards and decorations are numerous, but include GCB., KCB., CB., DSO., MC. and several MID's.

Sir Wilfrid's service advancement and career are well documented elsewhere, but certain details remain in my mind.  For instance, his exploits on the Aisne which I described, incurred the wrath of his CO, for both flyers were qualified pilots, such crew make-ups being usually disallowed.

Sir Wilfrid's involvement in WW2 with aircraft production ensured that the RAF was eventually equipped with aircraft of excellent calibre, including the DeHavilland Mosquito, which once apparently had the nickname of "Freeman's Folly" - clearly wrong, for if memory serves me right, in WW2 it was a frequent bombing visitor over Berlin, usually at night at an altitude where it could not be reached.
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 25, 2015, 11:39:30 AM
                   Lieutenant (later Captain) Frank Billinge : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regiment & No. 20 Squadron RFC.

As was the case with Captain Solly, also formerly with the Regiment, this officer has also been recorded as an "Air Ace", the records reporting his gaining five "successes".

On the morning of the 7th February 1916, No. 20 Squadron flying FE2b aircraft were detailed to escort No. 15 Squadron operating BE2c machines in a joint Second Army reconnaissance over the Salient.  The whole morning's work was "harrowing" insofar as only by retaining tight formation were the two squadrons able to beat off up to 14 Fokker aircraft and return to base more or less intact, except for a leg wound suffered by Lt. J. Prestwich which subsequently and sadly proved fatal.  However, for Lt. Billinge this was a successful morning, for he was able to report that he had been in combat with an enemy 'plane which was seen to go into a side-slip at 8200 feet somewhere over Roulers with its engine on fire.  His pilot was Lt. J.Reid.

From the 8th February the German Army and its squadrons were very active in the Ypres area, attempting to divert attention from their forthcoming attacks at Verdun which began on the 21st February, then giving temporary, but welcome relief to the hard pressed RFC further north.

On the 13th February, Billinge was again airborne with his squadron, this time in FE2b No. 6336 with 2nd Lt. J.T.Kirton as his pilot, carrying out another escort/reconnaissance/combat patrol.   During this operation they were engaged in action against at least three German machines, one with an enemy machine at 7400 feet which was hit, fell to the ground crashing west of Mouscron and later they were involved with two other German aircraft, an Albatros over Menin and a Rumpler in the vicinity of Halluin.

Recorded as Billinge's first "victory", this was also the first CERTAIN victory for No. 20 Squadron.

On the 14th March Lt. Billinge was flying in a FE2b aircraft No. 6339 of No. 20 Squadron on a morning operation, his pilot being Captain J. R. Howett.  At 8 a.m. and at 8300 feet near Roulers, they were attacked by a Fokker aircraft which had taken off from Gites aerodrome.  The report of the skirmish indicates that it was intense and prolonged and at one stage included a head on engagement which almost involved a collision by the two aircraft, the margin of separation between them being given as not more than 10 feet.  The British aircraft returned to base badly damaged and with Billinge having a wound to his eye. 

In August 1916 he undertook pilot training in England and on completion returned to France, flying DH2 machines with No. 32 Squadron with whom he served until June 1917.   In February 1918 he was in France once again, joining No. 56 Squadron flying SE5A's where he completed his score of enemy 'planes downed with the destruction on the 22nd March of an Albatros DV.   An intrepid aviator.
PhilipG.






 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 26, 2015, 10:53:15 AM
Captain Billinge as mentioned above, is credited with five approved "claims".  In this connection, I see that only two enemy aircraft included in his list were able to be identified as to type of machine.  These are listed as an Albatros DV and a machine, previously unknown to me, recorded as an A.G.O.C .  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 26, 2015, 07:20:56 PM
Philip
You are not alone in having never heard of a AGO Type C  aircraft before. From what I have managed to find they were not very good or popular with their crew.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGO_Flugzeugwerke#Aircraft

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 27, 2015, 01:29:12 PM
Charlie,
 Thanks. Very recently, I attended a presentation on the Spitfire given by a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society.   Speaking of the excellent qualities of this aircraft, he remarked: "if it looks right and it feels right, then it is right".   I sense from your comments and the photograph, that this maxim may not hold true re the A.G.O.C.   Thanks again. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 04, 2015, 03:25:12 PM
                                  Major John Simpson Foulkes DSO : 23rd. Battalion Manchester Regiment and RAF.

This officer's military service appeared to commence in 1908 when he held the rank of Sergeant in a battalion of the King's (Liverpool Regt.).  However, in February 1915 he was commissioned in the 23rd Manchesters in the rank of 2nd. Lt. and later saw service with the 14th battalion.   The citation for his DSO (1917), includes the following : "During an attack on the enemy trenches he personally closed with a party of the enemy and inflicted severe losses on them, and although wounded in the back by a bomb, continued to control the operation until its conclusion."

In 1918 he was attached to a battalion of the York & Lancaster Regiment holding the rank of Major (with seniority 17.10.16) and in August 1918 he transferred to the Royal Air Force, being posted to the RAF Station at Eastchurch in Kent for flying duties.

Born in Stockport, this brave officer died in Liverpool in 1946 at the early age of 56.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 08, 2015, 11:22:25 AM
                                          Lt.A.W.Brown : 3rd Bn. Manchester Regt. & No. 2 Squadron RFC

Early on the morning of the 22nd September 1915, Lt. Brown, (his pilot being 2nd. Lt. H.W. Medlicott), was engaged on an artillery patrol flying as Observer in a BE2c aircraft No. 2673 of No.2 Squadron RFC near Lens.  During the patrol they were in combat with what they reported was a "twin nacelled Albatros", but returned to base unscathed.

Later that morning the two airman were engaged in combat with German flyers in the Lens - Arras area.  The fighting commenced at 11,000 feet only being broken off when the combatants reached the lower altitude of 5,500 feet.

They were again airborne on an evening patrol and on return to base reported that they had met an enemy 'plane at 6 p.m. which they identified as a Fokker aircraft.    A busy day.

On the 26th October, Lt. Brown was detailed to carry out an artillery registration exercise in the Vermelles - Loos area again flying in a BE2c aircraft, this time No. 1729 with Lt. A.L.Russell piloting the machine.  At 11 a.m., they had reached a height of 9,000 feet when they encountered an enemy aircraft which they identified as an Albatros.  In the ensuing engagement the German 'plane was seen "to waver but to recover."

On the 10th November, with 2nd Lt. Medlicott acting as his pilot, Lt. Brown was detailed to make a reconnaissance in the Bapaume area.   On this occasion they were again flying in squadron aircraft No. 2673.  However, on this occasion good fortune deserted them and they were shot down (punctured petrol tank, perhaps?) over enemy lines and made POW's, Lt. Brown being found to have been wounded.

2nd Lt. Medlicott would appear to have been an inveterate escaper - one source suggests he attempted 13 escapes - being shot by the Germans upon undertaking his 14th attempt on the 21st May 1918.  He is buried in Niederzwehren Cem., Kassel.

In the case of Lt. Brown, he was subsequently sent for internment in Switzerland on the 19th January 1917 (serious nature of wounds?) and repatriated on the 11th September of that year.  Post War, he teamed up with John Alcock, acting as Alcock's navigator, in completing the successful transatlantic flight on the 14th June 1919 in a Vickers Vimy Bomber, their time being 16 hours and 12 minutes.  Both flyers were knighted by the King and received a prize of �10,000 from the Daily Mail newspaper.   As Lt. Col. Sir Arthur Whitten Brown KBE, this intrepid aviator died on the 4th October 1948.  PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on March 09, 2015, 08:07:39 AM
2/Lt Medlicott certainly liked to get around he was held in the following camps: Heilberg, C�strin, Clausthal (I'm very happy here and do not wish to escape :)), Hannoversche M�nden, Ingolstadt, Mainz, Holzminden and Colberg.
He was shot and killed in Heldburg on the Colberger Strasse at distance marker 23.6 Kms while escaping. He was accompanied by Captain Stanley J Walter of 7th Bn Queens RW Surrey Regt. Who was also shot and died later in hospital.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 09, 2015, 08:59:47 AM
Charlie,

Many thanks for that very interesting contribution.    Colditz springs to mind. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 21, 2015, 11:51:03 AM
           2/Lt. (later Captain) Robert Finlayson Sinclair : 14th battalion Manchester Regt. & Royal Flying Corps.

Tracing the sequence of the military career of this officer has not been easy.  The records indicate that he was a 2nd Lt. on the 5th October 1915 in the Manchesters and later at Catterick Aerodrome where he was attached in that rank to No. 14 (Reserve) Squadron of the RFC, later holding the rank of Lt. and still with the Royal Flying Corps.

However, he saw active service with the 1/5th (The Sutherland & Caithness Highland) Battalion Seaforth Highlanders and again from the records, he is listed as a POW in the rank of Captain with the 5th Seaforths under date 21st March 1918 with a repatriation date of January 1919.  In this regard, returning POW's were interviewed in respect of the circumstances of their capture (as also in WW2), and I see that his papers are annotated "Exonerated Officers List".

I think it would be possible to say, that for some reason (medical down-grading?), he left the RFC and joined the 5th Seaforths, a battalion with roots in Caithness where the family lived.   As regards the 5th Seaforths on the 21st March 1918, they were part of 152 Infantry Brigade of the 51st (Highland) Division of the Third Army holding the line in front of Doignies.   It is clear from the Official History of the Great War, that the battalion suffered severely in the enemy advance of the 21st March and it must be presumed that it was during this fighting that Sinclair was taken prisoner.

After discharge from the army, it would appear that at some time later he took a post in Borneo, perhaps on a rubber plantation.   However, in December 1941 the Japanese entered the Second World War and in due course their army occupied Borneo.   Sinclair is recorded by the CWGC as a civilian death and dying during the month of September 1942.  He was 47 years old.  His name is recorded in the Civilian War Dead Roll of Honour in Westminster Abbey.

PhilipG.





Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on March 21, 2015, 04:41:09 PM
Robert Finlayson Sinclair

Philip
He saw service on 17 Sqn in Salonika from October 1916 as a Flying Officer. He was captured, as you have rightly stated, at Dolgnies on 21 March 1918 while a Captain in C Coy. He was wounded in the left shoulder. He is listed as being moved from a PoW camp at Cambrai to Karlsruhe on 28.05.1918 and from Graudenz to Bad Colberg on a list dated 15.06.1918.
He was also awarded the Territorial Decoration, LG 16 May 1930, whilst serving with 4th/5th Seaforths

I have also found another RF Sinclair - Roy Fulton - 330560 Pte HLI, 2/Lt Manchesters, Lt RAF

Charlie

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 22, 2015, 11:20:45 AM
Charlie,

Thank you for your valuable help in this interesting matter including of course, "filling in" the gap as to his military career as a Lieutenant - you advising that he was flying on active service in Salonika with No. 17 Squadron RFC during that time.

As you know, the pattern in this thread is usually service in the Army followed by service in the RFC/RAF.  In this case Sinclair alters the pattern, for it ends in a return to the Army.  In view of the very high incidence of cases of malaria in Salonika and the consequence of the need to return such cases to the UK for recovery, I wonder if Sinclair succumbed to this disease and that his medical category thereafter did not fit him for flying duties?  Just a thought!

As regards his service with No. 17 Squadron RFC, I have not found any reference to his duties with that squadron.  What did emerge, however, was the list of obsolete aircraft the crews were compelled to fly.

Lastly, I cannot help wondering whether or not Sinclair came across the 13th Manchesters who were "soldiering on" in Salonika at that time?

Thanks again. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on March 23, 2015, 10:20:29 AM
medlicott wasn't in the manchesters,he was formerly RHA.

google. Harold Houdini medlicott

when his plane went down and he was captured,his observer was Arthur,whitten brown of alcock+brown fame

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 23, 2015, 12:19:41 PM
Mack,

                                         Lt A.W.Brown : 3rd Manchesters

Thank you for directing me to that interesting web site re 2nd Lt. Medlicott of "Houdini" fame and also pointing out that Medlicott was not in the Manchesters, but formerly in the RHA.

I had another look at the piece on Lt.Brown's exploits and on re-reading, I do not think there was any suggestion that Medlicott was in the Manchesters, his name being included in the post merely because, on two occasions, he was Lt. Brown's pilot.  Thanks again. Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 29, 2015, 08:36:56 AM
                          Lieutenant Pelham La Trobe Foster : 1st Bn. Manchester Regt. & No. 40 Squadron RFC

This has been an interesting piece of research insofar as Lt. Foster became a casualty in a manner with which I had not hitherto come across.

He transferred to the RFC (from Overseas) arriving at Reading on the 25th August 1917.  From then on his flying training began, with postings to various units, including the Central Flying School at Upavon and an Air Gunnery School. By the 23rd February 1918 he was considered suitable for transfer to the Expeditionary Force for duties with No. 40 Squadron as a pilot qualified to fly SE5a aircraft, arriving at the squadron on the 27th of that month.

On the 9th March Lt. Foster was ordered to carry out an Operational Patrol and he left his base at just after 3 p.m. piloting a SE5a aircraft No.C 5348.  Later in the day he was posted as Missing in Action.  The records are interesting and are written as follows - "New Pilot: lost? Seen going towards Auchel? 5 p.m."   However, he is recorded in the List of Officers taken Prisoner under date 9th March 1918 in the rank of 2nd Lt. suggesting, perhaps, that his brief sojourn with the squadron did not provide sufficient time for him to be aware of his promotion.  He was repatriated on the 14th December 1918.

His flying duties were not to be over and he proceeded to the "Pool of Pilots" at Netheravon, finally to leave the Service on the 13th July 1919.

(Lt. Foster had a brother - Bernard La Trobe Foster - who was killed in action on the 23rd July 1916 whilst serving with the 19th Manchesters.  He is buried in the A.I.F Burial Ground at Flers.)

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 03, 2015, 07:52:42 PM
Lt La Trobe Foster

Philip
On 19.04.1917 he was gazetted to be Flying Officer (Observer) with seniority from 12.02.1917 and transferred to the General List. He was posted to 11 Sqn in June 1917 as a Flying Officer (Observer). He was captured at Noyelles and was held as a PoW at Lille, Karlsruhe, Landshut and Holzminden. He is consistently listed as being a Lieutenant in the ICRC records, so it would seem as though he was aware of his promotion.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 04, 2015, 12:54:58 PM
Charlie,

I thank you for your usual and helpful info. and it is pleasing to learn that he would be aware of his promotion.  Do you think that the source of some of the info. you quote (and I have seen), came from a RAF document prepared after the RFC amalgamation with the RAF (1.4.18), hence the reference to a rank of Flying Officer and, too, the back-dating references to 1917?  Thanks again. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 04, 2015, 05:33:06 PM
Charlie,

 Do you think that the source of some of the info. you quote (and I have seen), came from a RAF document prepared after the RFC amalgamation with the RAF (1.4.18), hence the reference to a rank of Flying Officer and, too, the back-dating references to 1917?  Thanks again. Philip.


Hello Philip,
The reference to "Flying Officer" had me somewhat confused as well. After a bit of digging it appears that prior to the adoption of the RAF ranks that we are now familiar with in 1919, the term "Flying Officer" would best described as a trade or an appointment. On qualification pilots and observers were appointed to the "Flying Officer Branch" which later became the General Duties Branch, they retained their army rank.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 05, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
Charlie,

Thanks for that much needed and welcome clarification.  I was beginning to think on those lines, too, for the RAF equivalent of a 2nd Lt. as given by Cox & Co's POW list is Pilot Officer, which seemed strange to refer to him holding the rank of Flying Officer.  Following the research maxim "If in doubt, leave it out", I did so.

Returning to the RAF document again and the column headed "Outgoing Authority", do you think that the letters "RO" and "SRO" stand for "Routine Orders" and "Station Routine Orders" respectively?   My wartime attachment to the Junior Service was brief and somewhat loose, but I do seem to recall "Daily Routine Orders" being of some consequence as they obviously were in the period we are now researching.  Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 06, 2015, 10:18:03 AM
Philip, I would certainly agree with SRO being Station Routine Orders (disregard them at your peril :) ) RO could also be Records Office. Trying to make sense of abbreviations nearly 100 years later is sometimes a bit of a problem as their meaning has sometimes changed over the years and what was self evident when they were used is not always evident today. I have been trying to find the meaning of "STHC" used in my Grandfathers  WW1 RAF service record for probably 15 years with no success.
Regards
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 06, 2015, 11:42:36 AM
Charlie,

Thanks once again for the info.  Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 08, 2015, 10:40:14 AM
                 No. 44340 Pte. Stanley Edward Pilbrow : 22nd Manchester Regiment & No. 20 Squadron RFC

This man originally served in the 16th Middlesex Regt. before being transferred to the 22nd Manchesters and eventually into the RFC in which service he was killed, still carrying the rank of Private soldier.

On the 27th July 1917, Pte. Pilbrow, together with his pilot, 2nd Lt. R.M.Makepeace was airborne over the Salient, flying in a FE2d aircraft No. A6548 of No. 20 Squadron RFC.  They were part of an operational patrol by a number of this squadron's aircraft designated to lure enemy aircraft (Albatros machines) into combat.  The operation resulted in a total of four Albatros aircraft being destroyed in the area Menin & Polygon Wood.

On the 15th August 1917, Pilbrow was again airborne, this time in FE2d No. A 5152, his pilot being 2nd Lt. C.H.Cameron.  Unfortunately, the engine was hit by enemy fire and the 'plane was forced to land, when it was then found that Pte. Pilbrow had been killed in the action.   He is buried in The Huts Cemetery, near Dickebusch.

The "victory" has been attributed to Werner Voss, but there is doubt whether or not his "claim" must relate to another No. 20 Squadron aircraft in which 2nd Lt. McLean and Gunner Owen became casualties.    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 10, 2015, 07:53:24 AM
At some stage during Pte. Pilbrow's military career he was awarded the Military Medal.     I have been unable to ascertain whether or not the award was made during his service with the 22nd Manchesters or in connection with the period he was with the 16th Middlesex.  I note that he joined the 22nd Manchesters on the 23rd June 1915 so it is, perhaps, possible the decoration was won whilst with the 22nd battalion?   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Robert Bonner on April 10, 2015, 11:21:17 AM
In Alastair Cowan's recent history of the 22nd Bn, Pte Pilbrow is included in the list of MM winners. No other detail unfortunately.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on April 10, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
44340 Stanley,edward pilbrow
enlisted 5-6-15
aged 23
1 carlysle square,chelsea
parents Edward+minnie
wife mabel
occupation,plumbers mate.
formerly 2381 16th Middlesex regt
transferred to 22nd manchesters 1-11-16
MM gazetted 28-9-17[22nd manchesters]

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 11, 2015, 07:49:01 AM
Robert & Mack,

Thank you both for the information. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 14, 2015, 11:13:39 AM
                                                             Private S.E. Pilbrow RFC

As Pilbrow was a member of an aircrew on operational duties carrying the lowly rank of Private soldier and possibly on a low rate of pay (1s 9d per day?), I found the whole matter of this research intriguing.

For instance, a similar situation was in being in the RAF early in WW2 where some flyers were engaged on operations holding ranks in the range AC2 - LAC.   A good example of this practice was a raid over the Albert Canal on the 12th May 1940 by F/O Garland, Sgt. Gray and LAC Reynolds, when all three in the attacking aircraft (Fairey Battle) were killed in that action.  Garland and Gray were each awarded the VC, but the third member of the aircraft's crew, the Radio Operator - Reynolds - whose rank was that of LAC was not so honoured.    Later, I recall the Air Ministry deemed that all aircrew must hold the minimum rank of Sergeant (12s 6d per day).

I wonder whether or not it was the general practice throughout the Great War for operational flying duties to be carried out by men of such lowly military rank as that held by Pte. Pilbrow?  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 19, 2015, 10:42:33 AM
I am told that the apparent discrimination against LAC Reynolds in the matter of the award to him of the VC was based on the Authorities' assumption that at the time of the crew's attack, Reynolds would not have been able to make a contribution to that attack.

As we are aware, in the matter of awards during the Great War, the Authorities had an unenviable task in deciding what would or would not be an appropriate award for gallantry.  Clearly, the same difficulties arose in WW2.  As regards the use of OR's on flying duties during the Great War as brought to light in the matter of Pte. Pilbrow, I intend to look further into this interesting matter. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 23, 2015, 09:34:14 AM
I have now done a "trawl" in squadron records for both the RFC and RAF and it would appear that soldiers and airmen in the range Private and AM1, AM2 etc. were often employed on aircrew duties.  Whether or not these men qualified for extra pay when thus employed I have not been able to ascertain. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 23, 2015, 08:14:10 PM
Hello Philip
This thread regarding Ptes and Airmen flying as aircrew on the RAF Commands website may interest you.
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?6325-Airman-Aircrew-Ranks.
Kind regards
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 26, 2015, 10:46:32 AM
Charlie,

Thank you for bringing to my notice the interesting and apparently authoritative piece by "Senior Member", which appears to confirm my previous research.   The reference to "flying pay" was particularly interesting for, arising out of my WW2 service, I was convinced that one never missed an opportunity to increase one's pay, even though the conditions to do so could be hazardous, a matter Pte Pilbrow must have considered.

I have noted "Senior Member's" remarks re Ground Trades and aircrew duties.   I think persistence in volunteering usually overcame official refusals.  Indeed, I served for some four months with a pre-war trained RAF Sergeant Instrument Maker, at that time he was holding the reduced but necessary re-mustered rank of LAC, the RAF presumably thinking that later he could better serve as a pilot of a Catalina Flying Boat.

To finish.  Near Bois Francais and Fricourt (of Manchester Regt. fame), the Fricourt Comm. Cem. contains the grave of AC2 Gordon Desmond Coles of 59 RAF Squadron and buried in a joint grave are the bodies of his pilot (F/O) and Observer (Sgt).   They were shot down on 22nd May 1940, so it would appear that promotion to the rank of Sergeant for all RAF aircrews had not been promulgated at that time.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 07, 2015, 07:13:19 AM
                          Captain Charles Harry Williamson MC  : 7th Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC.

In civil life this officer was a pharmaceutical chemist.  He enlisted in the 7th Manchesters and served in Gallipoli where he was wounded.  He was awarded the Military Cross in respect of his service during the fighting at the Battle of Rumini in 1916.  Details of his service with the Royal Flying Corps are sparse, but he died on 27th March 1917 and is buried in Kantara War Memorial Cemetery. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on May 07, 2015, 08:53:42 AM
Captain Williamson was on 14 Sqn at the time of his death. He was flying as an Observer with 2/Lt Cecil Charles Gibbs in a BE2e which stalled and caught fire. He is recorded as arriving at Ismailia in October 1916. 2/Lt Gibbs is also buried in Kantara War Memorial Cemetery.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 08, 2015, 02:37:57 PM
Charlie,

Thank you.  Clearly, Lt. Gibbs was not watching his airspeed and perhaps "spun in". Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 15, 2015, 06:52:03 AM
                                                           Captain C.H.Williamson

In the matter of the Battle of Romani, the Turks mounted an attack on the 3rd August 1916, the air support to the British forces being given by No. 14 Squadron RFC with their BE2c machines and some aircraft from No. 1 Australian Squadron.  The battle ended with the defeat of the Turks with no less than 4000 enemy prisoners being taken.

During the air operations 7 RFC aircrew became casualties.   Interestingly, one RFC aircraft succumbed to enemy AA fire some 12 miles behind the Turkish lines, but the crew were able to regain the British front line on foot after first destroying their damaged machine.     PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Pete Th on May 19, 2015, 05:34:28 AM
Philip, I've just found another entry related to transfer of officers to the RFC in the 11th Battalion war diaries:

"27th March 1918. Quiet day. 2Lts W. Jones & J. Swann proceeded to England on transfer to RFC"

Regards
Pete
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 19, 2015, 07:24:15 AM
Pete,

Thanks for that info. I shall see if I can find anything at this end. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on May 20, 2015, 02:49:47 PM
2/Lt Hilton

Hello Philip,
On the 29.03.1918 he was involved in a landing incident in RE8 B2295 also of 13 Sqn. The aircraft overturned due to gusty wind on landing after a contact patrol, both 2/Lt Hilton and his pilot 2/Lt AH Read were uninjured. At the time of his death he was flying in RE8 C4570.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 20, 2015, 04:20:53 PM
  Charlie,
 
                                           2nd Lt. Robert Hilton (Observer, No. 13 Squadron RAF & 5th Manchesters)
                               
Thank you for this further information concerning this officer who was killed 6.4.18 age 19 years and who has no known grave, his name being recorded on the Arras Flying Services Memorial.   In the circumstances you describe, there is a dilemma whether or not to release one's harness and drop to the ground and break one's neck or to await the crash crew to arrive to effect your release. Meanwhile, there is the worry of a possible leak of petrol and risk of fire.   The aircrews were brave men. Philip. 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 31, 2015, 10:05:54 AM
                              Lt. (later Major) Frederick James Powell MC  :  18th Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

This officer was commissioned in the Manchester Regt. in September 1914 and was later to transfer to the Royal Flying Corps, serving in their squadrons numbered 5, 40, & 41.   After hostilities, he served with No. 28 Squadron RAF, the unit being stationed in India.   I note that he qualified as a pilot in March 1915 and the squadrons' records available indicate that he took part in numerous operations in the Salient in 1915/16 piloting Vickers FB5 aircraft, his flying expertise when in contact with the enemy leading to him being classified as an "Air Ace" with 6 "victories" to his name.

There is a gap in the records I have been able to access for the period 1917/18, but it would seem likely that whilst in the UK during those years, he qualified as a pilot suitable for operating single-seat fighter aircraft, as his war time flying ended when he was wounded and made POW whilst piloting such a type of machine, namely the SE5a.

In passing, it is a tribute to aircrews (e.g. Lts. Powell & Lubbock) of the RFC that they contemplated air combat at an altitude of of 10,000 feet, a height, where in the years to come, operations at that altitude would warrant the need for an oxygen supply.

Selected Squadron Reports concerning Lt. Powell :-

19th September 1915

During the early morning, Lt. Powell was in successful combat with enemy aircraft at 6,000 feet, AM1 J.Shaw acting as his gunner and on one occasion was compelled to "chase down" an enemy 'plane on account of a "gun jam".

3rd October 1915

Again Powell was airborne with AM1 Shaw when they were in close combat with a German LVG aircraft at 4,800 feet and thereafter with an Albatros machine.

llth October 1915

Once again Lt. Powell had AM1 Shaw aboard as his gunner when they engaged an enemy biplane at 5,000 feet.  However, their aircraft was hit by AA fire and forced to land where it was discovered that AM Shaw had been wounded in the leg.

4th November 1915

With Lt. E.F.P.Lubbock as his Observer, Powell was flying at 7,000 feet near Ypres when attacked on 3 occasions by enemy aircraft, but nevertheless the two officers were able to return to base unscathed.

28th November 1915

Again flying with Lubbock and whilst on a photographic patrol, Powell engaged in combat with an Aviatik type aircraft climbing to 10,000 feet to do battle.  Frustratingly, at the crucial moment the aircraft's gun jammed.

19th December 1915

In action again with Lubbock, these two officers engaged in air combat once more, this time with an Aviatik, a LVG and a Fokker aircraft, at one time involving a "chase down" from an altitude of 8,000 feet down to 1,000 feet at which height their aircraft was unfortunately hit by AA fire and they were compelled to return to base.

2nd February 1918

By this date Powell was holding the rank of Major with No. 41 Squadron RFC which was equipped with SE5a machines.  Flying No. B8273 he was involved in a fight at 6,000 feet with 3 enemy aircraft and was wounded and forced to land (Auberchicourt - N of Cambrai), where he was made a POW.  The German pilot involved is said to be Lt. Kuhn of Jasta 10. 

PhilipG.



Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on May 31, 2015, 11:37:51 AM
Major Powell

Hello Philip,
The 2nd of February seeming had it in for Major Powell. On the 2nd February 1917 he had to make a forced landing due to freezing oil whilst flying FE8 7611 of 40 Sqn. He landed somewhere Northeast of the Aerodrome. He was MiD 15.10.1915 for gallant conduct. As a PoW he was held at Douai, Karlsruhe, Landshut and Holzminden being repatriated in December 1918.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 31, 2015, 03:06:47 PM
Charlie,

Many thanks. Do you know where the forced landing took place - UK or Western Front?
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on May 31, 2015, 05:22:37 PM
Philip,
40 Sqn served from August 1916 on the western front.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on June 01, 2015, 07:38:35 AM
Charlie,

Thank you.   Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on June 08, 2015, 07:25:55 AM
I note that Major Powell is listed in the "Roll of Officers" for the 18th Manchesters (holding the rank of Lieutenant) in the "City Battalions' Book of Honour".  Alas, on the date the photograph was taken he was absent carrying out duties elsewhere.  I have never been entirely sure when the battalions' photographs for this  book were taken and wonder if the date is known to us. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on June 08, 2015, 09:44:15 AM
I note that Major Powell is listed in the "Roll of Officers" for the 18th Manchesters (holding the rank of Lieutenant) in the "City Battalions' Book of Honour".  Alas, on the date the photograph was taken he was absent carrying out duties elsewhere.  I have never been entirely sure when the battalions' photographs for this  book were taken and wonder if the date is known to us. PhilipG.
he landed in france on 14th june 1915.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on June 09, 2015, 10:26:52 AM
Mack,

Thank you for that information. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on June 10, 2015, 07:46:11 AM
                           Lieutenant E.M.Besso  :  1/5th Manchester Regt., RFC & RAF

This officer's name is one of some 60 listed on the Manchester Congregations Spanish and Portuguese Jews Roll of Honour for the Great War.   It is understood that getting on for one fifth of enlistments from the community, which would appear to have centred on synagogues in the areas of Cheetham Hill Road and Mauldeth Road, Manchester, served in the Manchester Regiment, including of course, 2nd Lt. Joshua H. Cansino of the 22nd Manchesters who was kia on 2nd June 1916.

I have been unable to trace Lieutenant Besso's service with either the Royal Flying Corps or the Royal Air Force and therefore do not know in which capacity he served in these units.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on June 11, 2015, 08:50:11 PM
His MIC is down as Maurice Besso.

He went with the 1/5th to 2b 10/12/1915.

It says that the British and Victory medals were
administered by the Air ministry
No other info on his Raf service as yet :)

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on June 11, 2015, 10:43:43 PM
Timberman,

Thank you.   Some further research has revealed the following:-

Lt. Besso joined up at Burlington Street, Manchester in the 2/7th Manchesters on the 26th September 1914, being issued with the Regimental Number 2609.  He was later commissioned in the 5th battalion in July 1915 before being transferred to the RFC.  He was "demobbed" from the RAF in March 1919.

Post war, he was in correspondence with the Authorities in Preston concerning his gratuity and an apparent failure to issue to him the appropriate war medals to which he was entitled.   PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on June 17, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Maurice Besso

Hello Philip,
A few bits regarding Maurice Besso:

Posted to 23 Reserve Sqn at Aboukir on 30.4.1917 for instruction (2/Lt).

Appointed Flying Officer and seconded to RFC on 31.05.1917 (2/Lt).

With the Ministry of Munitions as a Lt and Flying Officer from March 1918.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on June 18, 2015, 09:52:04 AM
Charlie,

Thank you once again for your contributions.   Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on July 02, 2015, 09:50:41 AM
                                                   2nd. Lt. George H.Heeley : 6th Bn. Manchester Regiment and Royal Flying Corps

Not unexpectedly, considering that this man (and his brother) saw service in Gallipoli, my research revealed some sadness in the family.

Private G.H.Heeley (No. 3186), together with his brother Private Arthur E.Heeley (No. 2637) both in the 6th Manchesters, left the UK on the 14th August 1915 destined ultimately for service in the Peninsula.  By the 23rd September 1915 Arthur Heeley was dead - "Shot dead by a sniper in the Dardanelles".   George Heeley however survived the campaign and was promoted to the rank of Corporal.  After "twenty months" he transferred to the RFC still in that rank where he was given the RFC Service Number 26067.

At the end of November 1917, Heeley was commissioned in the RFC being employed on instruction duties at "Number 6. S of A", a description which may be the title of a School of Aeronautics?

It could be surmised that his war service had severely affected his health, for the records state that he relinquished his commission on 27th September 1918 on the grounds of ill health, being granted the Hon. Rank of Lieutenant the following day.   On one set of documents is an annotation referring to an enquiry by the RAF Benevolent Fund.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on July 02, 2015, 02:21:04 PM
Hi Phillip,
Arthur Heeley is mentioned on the WACOS Roll of Honour and in the Magazines that you have (and I covet)
"Mentioned in the Battalion War Diary as having �behaved very gallantly�,Sept 20th 1915. �Letter received giving particulars of the death� �He was shot by a sniper whilst crawling from the bombing pit to his dug-out. There were five of them who had been throwing these bombs, and he was the last to leave. He was killed instantly. You will be proud to hear that the Colonel has recommended him for the D.C.M.; but as so many are recommended and nothing is heard further of it, we are not thinking any more about it.� � (Nov 1915 School Mag, p17-18)"

I've not yet confirmed whether George was also a pupil.
Cheers
T
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on July 27, 2015, 12:48:24 PM
                                  Lieutenant G.F.Ward : Manchester Regiment & Royal Flying Corps

During the afternoon of the 3rd September 1917, Lt Ward was piloting a RE8 type aircraft No. A4651 of No. 4 Squadron RFC over the Salient, accompanied by 77451 Sgt. W. Studholme MM carrying out a photographic patrol.     Around 3 p.m. they were attacked by three enemy machines and during the resultant combat they were shot down, crashing near "Stirling Castle".

The report, not unexpectedly, describes Lt Ward as "shaken", but Sgt. Studholme had been seriously wounded during the action and died from his wounds two days later.  He is buried in Godewaersvelde British Cemetery.

It is unclear who shot down the RE8, claims being made by two German pilots, one from Jasta 4 and the other from Jasta 36.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on July 28, 2015, 02:45:36 PM

                                     2nd Lieutenant Arthur N.Leckler  :  15th Manchesters & Royal Flying Corps

On the 5th April 1917, Lt.Leckler, together with Lt.H.D.K.George acting as his Observer were flying over Douai in a Bristol F2a No. A3340 of No. 48 Squadron RFC carrying out an Offensive Patrol. At around 11 a.m. they were attacked by three Albatros DIIIs south east of Douai and shot down, victims of von Richthofen of Jasta 11.  Both crew members were wounded and taken prisoner, Lt George succumbing to his wounds the following day.  In Leckler's case, he was subsequently interned in Holland (9.4.18), finally being repatriated on 7th September 1918, possibly on account of the nature of his wounds?

Lt. George is buried in Douai Comm. Cem.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on July 31, 2015, 07:39:10 PM
                                 2nd Lieutenant Charles Herbert Grove-Hills : 3rd Bn. Manchester Regt. & Royal Air Force

Before joining the Manchesters, this officer was a trooper in Botha's Light Horse.   He died of wounds on the 5th September 1916 and is buried in Dartmoor Cemetery, Becordel-Becourt.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on July 31, 2015, 10:28:47 PM
The above named officer was known in the service under the name "Hills".   In view of his date of death, the report that he was  attached to the RAF must be an error and that his transfer would surely be to the RFC.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 12, 2015, 11:14:36 AM
                                 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland : Manchester Regiment & Royal Air Force

This officer was commissioned on the 4th September 1914 and shortly afterwards proceeded overseas with the BEF, apparently in the capacity of interpreter.   In due course, he was transferred to the General List where he was promoted to Lieutenant in the Intelligence Corps carrying out interpreting duties.  Later he transferred  to the Royal Air Force.  I note that Acland served with the RAF in WW2 reaching the rank of Squadron Leader.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 12, 2015, 02:55:01 PM
Lt Acland was serving in January 1918 with 16th Balloon Coy, (43 section) as an Observer on probation. In March he is listed as being a Balloon Officer.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 13, 2015, 01:08:12 PM
Charlie,

Thank you.  As you know, Kite Balloon officers engaged on observation duties had to carry out some 100 hours of such duty before qualifying for the coveted Observer brevet.   I wonder if Acland was able to meet this requirement?    Regards, PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 13, 2015, 03:45:16 PM
Philip,
I wasn't aware of the qualifying period, it seems a very long time in what would be an appealing target for the enemy.  I wonder if his appointment to Balloon Officer indicated that he had qualified.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 14, 2015, 11:36:40 AM
Charlie,

Thank you.  I tend to feel that Acland's appointment and subsequent title of Balloon Officer could well warrant the award to him of the Observer brevet.  Looking back, in another war, I got in over 100 hours flying time within a time-scale of 3 months (in units of 90 minutes).  One must bear in mind, too, that the Kite Balloons also operated at night on artillery "spotting" ( e.g. locating the source of incoming enemy fire), when the possibility of being shot down must have been reduced. Just a thought!. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 17, 2015, 11:32:22 AM
Charlie,

I have looked again at your post and excellent discovery that Lt. Acland, after probation, received the status of Balloon Officer in the RFC.  Accordingly, I have done some research in ascertaining the training requirements required to achieve this appointment.  I give below some of my findings: -

Theory of Flight appertaining to Kite - Balloons
Meteorology
Communications with base
Photography and Map work
Aircraft Recognition
Understanding instruments, e.g.calibration of altimeter & rate of climb/descent instrumentation
Working with ground forces, e.g. artillery and infantry
Handling of balloon whilst on the ground
Parachute procedures

Satisfactory completion of six Kite - Balloon flights free and unattached from ground installations, e.g Winch Lorry.

The "passing out test" would appear to be "going solo" long distance with subsequent descent and retrieval by Kite - Balloon crew.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 17, 2015, 03:27:08 PM
Philip,
Thank you for the interesting information. A lot of ground school work to be completed as well as the 100 hours flying, it must have been an intensive training period and a well earned brevet.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 18, 2015, 11:36:19 AM
Charlie,

Thank you. The "passing out test" seems frightening.

I admit that I know little about the medals and ribbons issued in respect of service in the Great War.  It would seem, however, that Lt. Acland as a member of the BEF was possibly issued with the "Mons Star", together with the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.

My purpose in mentioning this fact is that in respect of his service in WW2 with the RAF, one cannot help thinking that together with his Observer brevet and his medals, the combined display on his Battle Dress Blouse could be described at one time in the Second World War, only as "eye-catching".   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 20, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
                        2nd Lt. (later Captain) Gerald Elliston Allen : 1/5th Manchester Regt. & Royal Flying Corps

This officer who was articled to a solicitor in Wigan was commissioned into the Regiment on the 26th March 1914.  He served with the battalion in Egypt, Gallipoli and France, in due course reaching the rank of Captain and it was in this rank that he was wounded on the 8th August 1915.  He later transferred to the RFC in September 1917, although whether or not he was employed on flying duties has not been established.  A note on his records indicate that he was stationed at the RAF HQ in Salisbury, presumably at Old Sarum Airfield.   He returned to civilian life in August 1919. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 20, 2015, 04:48:11 PM
Gerald Elliston Allen.

Hello Philip, I cannot find anything linking him to aircrew. This is all I could find:

LG 8 May 1914
5th Battalion, The Manchester Regiment;
Gerald Elliston Allen (late Cadet Lance- Cbrporal, Rugby School Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps) to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 27th March, 1914.

LG 29 April 1921
5th (D.F.) Bn
To be temp. Capts.:�
Gerald Elliston Allen. 9 Apr. 1921.

It looks like he may have re-enlisted. The spelling mistakes are not mine :)

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 21, 2015, 07:25:08 AM
Charlie,

Thank you. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on August 21, 2015, 07:53:37 AM
he joined the 5th batt as a 2/Lt on 26-3-1914.Lt march 1915.captain august 1915.attatched to RFC from September 1917 till august 1919,he was wounded at Gallipoli on 8th august 1915,served Egypt,gallipoli,france+flanders and Canada
became commanding officer of the 5th batt in the early 1930s
died 3-1-1966.
his attatchment to the RFC,could have been the reason he was in Canada,he arrived in liverpool in 1918 from new York.
he was a solicitor with his fathers firm in wigan.

mack ;D
ps.theres a group photo of 5th batt officers[him included]on the wiganworld website.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 21, 2015, 09:03:58 PM
Mack,

Thank you. His visit to Canada in 1918 is certainly intriguing. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 26, 2015, 04:37:33 PM
                                     No.6591 Sgt. (later 2nd Lt.) Harry Wigrall Cattrall : 11th Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

There is evidence that this NCO went overseas on the 8th November 1915 and I surmise that he was on a draft to join the battalion then serving on the Peninsula.  By the end of June 1916, the battalion had sailed for France and by the 20th July had reached the Arras sector, followed by subsequent service on the Somme and at Messines.  Shortly before the Battle of Messines, Cattrall was transferred to the Royal Flying Corps being commissioned on the 29th May 1917.

I have assumed he would be on flying duties, but so far have been unable to confirm this.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 26, 2015, 05:10:14 PM
Lt Cattrall

Hello Philip
Again I cannot find anything to link him to flying duties, but he would also appear to have seen service with the 16th Bn. If it is the same HW Cattrall he lost a son Philip Rodney, a Sgt AG in WW2.

http://aircrewremembered.com/alwyn-fell.html

Kind Regards
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 26, 2015, 05:56:46 PM
Charlie,

Thanks.  This man has been on my "pending list" for some months.  Somewhere, I discovered he was in the 11th battalion. We need some expertise to confirm this and that I have got the right man.  Nevertheless, I found it interesting to have a look at the 11th battalion's Great War exploits during the research, so the time spent was not wasted.  Help needed.  Take care,  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on August 26, 2015, 07:44:39 PM
6591 Private H W Cattrall is included in the Roll for VII Pln of 16th Bttn. Enlisted as former Clerk 1/9/14. This would be consistent with his arrival in France on 8/11/1915. He received his Star as Sgt Rank on Roll and LCpl on MIC.  Service Record shows unpaid LCpl 26 July or maybe Jan. Cpl 1/7/1916 and Sgt 10/7/1916 - all with 16th Bttn. BWM & VM relate to Rank as 2/Lt. Comm to 4th Bttn 29/5/1917 - LG 21/6/1917. Had been posted Depot 31/12/1916 following return Home and having leave beforehand 15-25 Dec.  The MIC confirms rank of Lt in RAF.
Cheers
Tim

Son's CWGC below
CATTRALL, PHILIP RODNEY
Rank:
    Sergeant
Trade:
    Air Gnr.
Service No:
    2216054
Date of Death:
    15/03/1944
Age:
    20
Regiment/Service:
    Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
 
    51 Sqdn.
Grave Reference:
    2A. B. 11.
Cemetery:
    CHOLOY WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information:
    Son of Harry Wignall Cattrall and Cynthia Irene Cattrall, of Maeshafn, Mold, Flintshire.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 27, 2015, 11:05:50 AM
  Charlie & Tim Bell,

                                                                  2nd Lt. Harry Wignall Cattrall

Firstly, I hasten to thank both of you very much indeed for clarifying the number of the battalion of the Manchesters in which this officer originally  served.      Your guidance brought me to find his name and place in the "Book of Honour".  Secondly, it is now obvious that my research was clearly off course and track in this aspect of Cattrall's service.  Thank you again.

(I found it touching that Cattrall's son had followed in his father's footsteps and joined the Junior Service, but sad that he lost his life in action during WW2. I note that this took place whilst serving as a "Straight AG" as opposed to a "WOP/AG" in a Halifax aircraft of 51 RAF Squadron - a "Hali-Bag- terms often used in my time.

In addition to his son having the same forename that I have, I see that he has the same year of birth, so may I, perhaps, attribute my research being adrift to my advancing years! ).
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on August 29, 2015, 06:35:19 PM
Philip
Lt Thomas Arthur Doran

I can see the 3rd man Commissioned from Artists Rifles on 2nd June 1916, with Wilfred Owen and Hubert Crampton, was Thomas Doran, who later served & survived in RFC with 7 Victories in 23 Squadron. Covers 2 of your interests

Tim
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 29, 2015, 08:40:49 PM
Tim,

              2nd Lieutenant (later Lieutenant) Thomas Arthur Doran :  5th Bn. Manchester Regt. & No. 23 Squadron Royal Flying Corps.

Many thanks for your helpful contribution.   Doran was, of course, an "Air Ace" having "downed" seven enemy 'planes in the period 2nd May 1917 to 14th August 1917, flying his Spad type aircraft, a type of aeroplane which had only been introduced to the Squadron in the previous month.  He did not seem to have a favourite machine, sometimes flying in No A262 and at other times in B1530.

Of the seven aircraft shot down, five were Albatros machines and the remaining two were "2-seaters" which it was not possible to identify.  The destruction of one of the "2-seaters" had to be shared with another officer in the Squadron, whilst the destruction of the other "2-seater" was shared with three officers.   

A brave and accomplished pilot.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 29, 2015, 10:54:42 PM
                                                                 Lieutenant Thomas Arthur Doran

Further research into this officer's military career unearths some interesting material. 

He was born in April 1895 and prior to his military service was employed as a Secretary with a firm in London E.C.  He had a knowledge of the French language and, as regards flying experience, I have discovered that amongst the aircraft types he had flown were the Sopwith Pup,the Spad, and the SE5A.  As regards aerial gunnery, he was given the grade "1st Class" on the operation of the Vickers and Lewis guns having attended courses at Brooklands and also at Hythe in Kent.

It would seem that following his exploits with No. 23 Squadron he was deemed unfit for General Service for 10 weeks, but fit for Home Service for Ground Duties only.  He was granted 3 weeks leave.

His flying career can be picked up again in 1918 when he is posted to No. 50 Squadron RAF and is found fit for flying duties once again.

Interestingly, on 17 September 1918 he is sent on a week's course in HMS Furious. HMS Furious was a cruiser which was altered by the removal of  its fore and aft gun turrets, enabling flight decks to be built in the space provided.     However, reports suggest that these arrangements were not ideal for flying purposes, as the ship's superstructure was still in place!

With the cessation of hostilities, Lt Doran (I do not know what rank he then held in the RAF) was posted to the Airship Station at Leuchars where, in April 1919 he awaited demobilisation.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 30, 2015, 08:02:31 AM
Lt Doran

Hello Philip,
Lt Doran was seconded to to the RFC on 20.03.1917, appointed to the Flying Officer branch as a 2/Lt in June 1917 and as a Lt in March 1918. While flying Spad VII (A262) of 23 Sqn from Baizieux to Aucher on a "traveling flight" the aircraft was damaged at St. Omer on 23.05.1917.

You were no doubt relieved to find that flight decks had improved somewhat 25 years later :)

Charlie

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on August 30, 2015, 10:43:00 AM
A relative of mine after training spent two years on HMS furious
from 1934 while it was part of the Mediterranean Fleet.
She was not put on reserve list until 15 September 1944
being used mainly for ferry duties during the second world war.

Worth a read :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Furious_%2847%29

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 31, 2015, 11:35:15 AM
Charlie & Timberman,

                                                                             Lt. Thomas Arthur Doran

Thank you to both of you for your helpful contributions.

During the research some interesting "asides" appeared.  For example, his "grounding" for 10 weeks suggests that WW1 squadrons had doctors looking out for "pilot fatigue" -  in WW2 in the RN these were doctors who had qualified as pilots and were known as Flight Surgeons.

I would also like to learn more about Airship Stations. It seems possible that service with such a unit could be even more dangerous than service in a Balloon unit, (Lt. Acland and No. 16 Balloon Coy. comes to mind.)

Thank you, Charlie, for your advice that Spad No. A262 was damaged.  This will account for the fact that Doran thereafter flew No. B1530.  As they used to say "It's a good landing if you can walk away from the crash".

The flying arrangements for operating aircraft from Furious' decks were intriguing.  I wonder what Doran thought about them?  Did he "have a go" in a Sopwith Pup, for we know he was qualified to fly such a type?  I suppose the ship turned into wind, built up a speed of knots and then launched a machine from the forward deck, the flight deck at the stern abaft the superstructure being used to "fly on".  It all sounds a bit "twitchy".  Regards to both. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 02, 2015, 12:50:06 PM
                                           Lieutenant Herbert William Oliver : 5th Bn. Manchester Regiment & RFC

This man was among the thousands whose officer training was undertaken by the Artist's Rifles.   He was commissioned in the 5th Manchesters on the 11th December 1915.  Later he was transferred to the Royal Flying Corps.

In regard to his military service, I have been unable to discover any detail. However, I note he was awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal and there is evidence that he continued to serve in the RAF after the amalgamations.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 02, 2015, 07:16:35 PM
Philip I have found the following - whether they are "the" Lt Oliver or even if they are the same person I cannot tell

Cadet Herbert William Oliver General List RFC to be PT2/Lt 17.05.1917

PT2/Lt HW Oliver to be Flying Officer and confirmed in rank 10.08.1917

Lt Herbert William Oliver, Artists Rifles Cadet, RFC and RAF

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 03, 2015, 03:59:36 PM
Charlie,

                                                                    Lieutenant Herbert William Oliver.

Thank you for the interest you take in my research and I note you are concerned that the information you have kindly given in this thread leads you to believe you may have been writing about a different officer.   I consider that the info. you have given relates to "my man".

My research source indicates that Oliver was gazetted as a Second Lieutenant in the 5th Bn. Manchester Regt. on 11.12.1915, having previously been a Cadet in the Artists' Rifles.   It goes on to state that Oliver was later a Pilot Officer in the RAF.

I wonder if the use of the word "Cadet" in the second line of your post has sown the seeds of doubt in the matter?   I take the view that the use of the word "Cadet" is likely to be the description applied to u/t aircrew in Flying School and is not applicable to your line four relating to a cadetship in the Artists' Rifles. What do you think, please?  PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 03, 2015, 04:58:42 PM
Philip

I found this in a 1917 issue of Flight (the article starts bottom right):
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1917/1917%20-%201100.html

continued here
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1917/1917%20-%201101.html

I think the article confirms your view that Cadet is also used for u/t aircrew.

It doesn't look like the links work properly, the first link should open the bottom thumbnail and the second link the top thumbnail on the next page.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 03, 2015, 07:14:57 PM
Charlie,

Thanks. Very interesting.  Especially the pay.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Robert Bonner on September 07, 2015, 10:15:15 AM
Philip.

I have just come across Lieutenant D W Stonehewer 16th Bn.  To the RFC 31 October 1917.

I don't remember his name coming up earlier.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 07, 2015, 11:35:49 AM
Robert,

Many thanks. You are right, it is a new name for me to have on my list. Philip.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 07, 2015, 12:14:51 PM
                    2nd Lieutenant (later Lieutenant) Edgar Rhodes : 13th Bn. Manchester Regt. Royal Flying Corps & Royal Air Force

Research into this young officer's military career has not been easy, insofar as the details are sparse and in some cases are the subject of conjecture.  For instance,  Lt. Rhodes was commissioned into the 13th Manchesters and this battalion was part of the British Salonika Force (BSF) - (a Force usually below strength and riddled with malaria).  Although his subsequent service with the RFC suggests he must have come to the Middle East from the BSF, this I have been unable to confirm.

It is recorded that he served in the Middle East, firstly with No. 67 (Australia) Squadron and in October 1917 with No. 113 Squadron of the RFC.  It would seem that the aircraft in which he flew could be BE2c's, BE12's and, perhaps, RE8's.

As he was not awarded his "wings" until 16th September 1918, it would seem possible that he was carrying out aircrew duties other than as pilot until that time.

The Third Battle of Gaza commenced on the 30th October 1917 and one of the tasks of the RFC was to ensure that before the attack, German reconnaissance aircraft were kept away from the Beersheba area.  It was during this type of operation on the 27th October that Rhodes received a gunshot wound in the forearm.  I note that Rhodes was still with the RAF early in 1919.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 11, 2015, 05:43:27 PM
                                               Lieutenant Douglas William Stonehewer : 16th Bn. Manchester Regt. RFC & RAF

This officer who was born in 1896 was commissioned into the 16th Battalion of the Manchesters, subsequently transferring to the Royal Flying Corps.

I begin with what I have been able to discover about the Lieutenant during his early service with the RFC, when he was posted from service in Reading to Winchester on 27th November 1917, to attend the Artillery & Infantry Co-operation School in that town.

This posting was followed by a draft to New Romney on the 21st January 1918, thence on the 13th February 1918 to 7th Brigade, 67 Wing, to join the following month with No.42 Squadron RFC as Corps Observer, by which time the squadron would have arrived in France after their service, I understand, in Italy.

At this stage in my research it had not been possible to ascertain whether or not Lt. Stonehewer had qualified as a pilot.  However, there is a record clarifying the matter.  This states he was sent to hospital on the 17th May 1918 and in due time discharged, the Medical Board assessing his fitness for flying duties, both as an Observer and also as a pilot.

I have not been able, from the records I have seen, to reach a conclusion as to what duties, either as an observer or pilot Lt. Stonehewer was undertaking, but I give below his military postings for September 1918 onwards:-

7th September     School of Armament at Ealing.
14th September               Do. at Uxbridge.       
16th October       No. 212 Training Depot Station (instruction in area).
29th October       Air Ministry (for instruction). Room 428.
18th December   58 Training Depot Station. (Midland area).

1919
21st January       59 Training Depot Station.
5th July              Struck off Strength and reported to 3rd Manchesters at Aldershot.

I mention above, the difficulty in ascertaining the exact duties that Lt. Stonehewer was ordered to undertake.   One record gives his appointment as "A (Misc.)".  The order to attend Room 428 at the Ministry (about a week), excites attention and leads me to suggest that Stonehewer was on some "Special Duty".   Just a thought. 

He was awarded the British War Medal and Victory Medal which he claimed in 1927.   He died in September 1954.  PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 14, 2015, 12:17:27 PM
Edgar Rhodes

Philip
Lt Rhodes was appointed to be a Flying Officer (Observer) in the rank of T2/Lt on 23.02.1917 with seniority from 21.12.1916 and is recorded as being a FO(O) up until March 1918. He was wounded while flying with Captain FH Furness-Williams in a BE2e.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 15, 2015, 01:48:35 PM
Charlie,

Many thanks. Best regards, PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 20, 2015, 12:57:21 PM
                        2nd Lieutenant George Ryall (later Lieut.) : 22nd Bn. Manchester Regiment, RFC & RAF

This officer was born in Tipperary in 1892 and in later life became a schoolmaster.  In 1915 he joined the 7th Bn. Royal Dublin Fusiliers and some time afterwards was recognised as "officer material", for the records state that he attended a Special Course at the Staff College in Camberley in that year.

He was drafted to France on the 29th May 1916, holding the rank of 2nd Lieutenant in order to join the 22nd Manchesters.  Thereafter, he took part in the first day of the Battle of the Somme, becoming one of the many casualties suffered by the Regiment.   Apparently, he was badly wounded early in the battalion's attack, for it seems he had no recollection of the battle until he reached hospital.

A purely personal view, is that his wounds were so serious as to prevent his return to active service, for there is evidence of his being sent on various courses to give him time, perhaps, to recover.   I give two examples:-

   Adjutants Course at Chelsea Barracks in 1916.
   Course for Officers in Charge of Messing at York in 1917.

Following Ryall's transfer to the Royal Flying Corps in 1917, he was attached for a month's duties with SARD (Southern Aeroplane Repair Depot?).

Later, a Medical Board observed him as "Unfit for General Duties and Home Service for 6 months" and upon his return they re-assessed his condition under date 12th March 1918 as being "Permanently unfit for General Duties and Home  Service - fit for Home Duties".

During this examination it emerged that Ryall had qualifications in Photography and accordingly he was sent to the London Photo Centre and promoted to the rank of Lieutenant, being given a designation of "EO3" which I have assumed indicates "Education Officer 3rd Class".

It would appear that Ryall left the Service in September 1919.   One can only wonder as to his fitness for civilian life.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 20, 2015, 04:20:08 PM
Hello Philip

The LG lists him as being appointed as an Equipment Officer 3rd Class

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30506/supplement/1590/data.htm

Kind regards
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 20, 2015, 05:09:28 PM
Charlie,

Thank you for your help, once again.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 21, 2015, 09:29:45 AM
Philip

SARD is as you suggest  1 (Southern) ARD which was based at Farnborough, young ladies were also employed there, so probably not the worst place to be posted :D

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 21, 2015, 03:24:57 PM
Charlie,

 Knowing the proximity of the Army camps in Aldershot to Farnborough, I would not think the RFC ladies would want for companionship.  The equivalent in my day would be that the ladies concerned would be RAF "Waafs".    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 26, 2015, 10:57:18 AM
          2nd Lt. (later Air Vice-Marshal) William Boston Cushion : 22nd Bn. Manchester Regt., RFC & RAF.

A photograph of this distinguished officer can be seen in the "Book of Honour" of the Manchester City Battalions where he is sitting with No. lX Platoon of the above battalion's "C" Coy.

Lieutenant Cushion was commissioned into the Regiment on the 3rd December 1914, subsequently proceeding on active service in France in November 1915, but leaving the battalion in January 1916 to join the Royal Flying Corps.  In this connection, I have been unable to establish whether or not he thereafter undertook aircrew duties and, if so, with which squadron.  I notice, however, that later in his military career and then holding the rank of Acting Major, he was carrying out duties with No. 5 (Res) Distribution Park, RAF.

At the end of hostilities he took a permanent commission with the Royal Air Force, progressing through the commissioned ranks of that Service until achieving the rank of Air Commodore in 1940 and becoming Director - General of Equipment.

Upon retirement he joined British Overseas Airways Corporation in an executive capacity.   I notice that in his career he received a number of Honours and I name two :  KBE & CB.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 26, 2015, 07:13:49 PM
2/Lt Cushion

Philip
He would appear to have only served as an Equipment Officer. On 24.03.1916 he is recorded as being on the strength of the Reserve Aircraft Park based in south Farnborough. On 13.04.1916 he was appointed as an AEO (Acting Equipment Officer?), on 05.12.1916 he was appointed to be an EO2. In June 1917 he was posted to 4 Balloon Wing HQ as an EO3 and appointed as an EO1 in July 1917. He was further posted as an EO1 to 4 Bde HQ in September 1917 and in March 1918 to 2 Bde HQ.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 27, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Charlie,

Thank you.  I wonder if he later got his "wings"? PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on September 27, 2015, 04:56:23 PM
Philip,
It would appear he didn't get his wings:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205218698

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 28, 2015, 12:33:42 PM
Charlie,

Thank you again.  I note that to add to his KBE, and CB, he has also been awarded a Mention in Despatches.

(The photograph of the Malta matelots in 1942 you also sent, took me back to my youth, particularly to the "Three-Badge Able Seaman" with his Good Conduct Badges on his uniform's left sleeve, indicating a rating whose seamanship etc. was highly regarded.  Jokers on the Mess Deck were heard to mislead me that such awards were "for 21 years of undetected crime in the RN."  Absolutely wrong! ).

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 02, 2015, 10:51:23 AM
                                 Captain Herbert Rees Jones  :  Manchester Regt., RFC & RAF

In May 1918 the Germans introduced their formidable fighting aircraft - the Fokker DVll - into battle and it would seem possible that Captain Rees
Jones and his Observer, 2nd Lt. Bruce-Norton, flying in a F2b aircraft of No. 62 RAF Squadron were victims of this type of enemy machine.

They had left their base at 9.55 a.m. on the 3rd May 1918 flying in aircraft No. C4709 on an Offensive Patrol, thereafter joining in combat with an enemy force.  In the ensuing battle, this resulted in the controls of the F2b being shot away and with their machine badly damaged, they were forced to land.  Both Jones and his Observer were unharmed.

Not unexpectedly, in view of the number of flying personnel with the name of Jones, research in this officer's case has not been easy.  The records indicate that he left for service overseas in October 1915, serving with the 15th battalion Manchester Regiment.  However, this battalion was never formed!  Similarly, I have not been able to locate on a map the location of Fontaine - les - Boubins, a place which I presume was the area in which the air battle took place.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 02, 2015, 12:48:36 PM
Capt HR Jones

Philip,
I have found Capt Jones as being late 13th Bn, his posting overseas would then tie into the 13th's move to Salonika. He is also recorded as being under instruction on 27 (Reserve) Sqn at Abbassia on 29.04.1917 and being appointed to the FO Branch on 07.08.1917.

Could Fontaine les Boubins be a mis-transcription of Fontaine les Boulans (32 miles NW of Arras at the junction of the D93 & 94)?

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 03, 2015, 12:28:03 PM
Charlie,
 Re Capt. Herbert Rees Jones.

Thank you.  As regards the "Abbassia Jones", I came across him too, but as I could not confirm that his middle name was "Rees", I followed the maxim "when in doubt leave it out".  However, I accept you could be absolutely correct.

I wonder, please, if in fact "Boubins" is a mistake for Boulans"?   On the map "Boulans" (NW of Arras), seems a fair distance from the battlefield. Secondly, two squadron aircraft were airborne at the same time on OP, the second F2b being shot down over Armentieres by JG1.  It's all a mystery.  Thanks again. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 03, 2015, 04:32:48 PM

I wonder, please, if in fact "Boubins" is a mistake for Boulans"?   On the map "Boulans" (NW of Arras), seems a fair distance from the battlefield. Secondly, two squadron aircraft were airborne at the same time on OP, the second F2b being shot down over Armentieres by JG1.  It's all a mystery.  Thanks again. PhilipG.

Philip,
After searching for Boubins also without success and the closest match being Boulans the only thing I could think of was a mistake in the original transcription particularly if the report was orginally hand written. If my reasoning is correct the "belly" of the a in Boulans could have been mistaken for the "belly" of the b, leaving the upright of the a to look like an i.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 03, 2015, 05:44:09 PM
Charlie,

A good point.Cheers, PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 10, 2015, 11:57:10 AM
        2nd Lt. (later Major) Vaudrey Adolph Albrecht OBE, MC,.  : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

This officer was commissioned into the Regiment in 1912 and subsequently promoted Lieutenant in April 1914 and it was in this rank that at the commencement of hostilities he and his battalion joined the British Expeditionary Force overseas.

During the retreat from Mons in 1914, Lieutenant Albrecht was wounded at the Battle of Le Cateau.   After recovery from his wounds, he re-joined his battalion on the 4th January 1915, by which time the battalion was in Dranoutre, south of Ypres.   The battalion was in action in the Hill 60 area in April 1915 and it was in the following month that he was wounded once again.

No doubt, then having recovered from his wounds, he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps, for on the 7th September 1915 the records state that he had qualified as a pilot having received training at the Military School in Birmingham.  I note that he was promoted to the rank of Captain the following month and in due course reached the rank of Major.

In regard to his later service with the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Air Force, I have been unable to discover detail regarding the squadron etc. in which he served, although in respect of the post war award of his medals there is a strong indication of some service in India and the NW Frontier.  Perhaps, Great War medal enthusiasts may be able to help in this matter.

Examples:-

India GS, Afghan, NW Frontier Force,  (Clasps & Roses).
British War Medal & Victory Medal. (By Air Ministry).

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 10, 2015, 05:12:59 PM
Vaudrey Albrecht was Mentioned in Despatches as Lt LG 1/1/1916 Pg 51 as Captain LG 1/12/1916 Pg 11803. Another MiD date unkown. Photo on Ancestry. Retired 1926.  Pupil Rossall School. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/5171967 (https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/5171967)
Born Worseley13/4/1888. I saw an interesting German name, but find he had Mancunian grandparents.  His father was a surgeon.  3/3/1924 111 Sqn Duxford inj [E6617 Sopwith Snipe] Collided with Avro H3071 when about to land. PO JG Peck Killed. Traveled to S Africa, Barbados, Jamaica and Brazil 1924 onwards.  Flying Officer in RAF LG 22/8/1941. Death 7/9/1944.
It seems Norman Vaudrey of 17th Bttn (KiA 1/7/1916) was his cousin http://buxtonwarmemorials.mrallsophistory.com/vaudrey_n.html (http://buxtonwarmemorials.mrallsophistory.com/vaudrey_n.html)
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on October 10, 2015, 07:33:29 PM
A bit confused (not hard to do) :)

On the Buxton war memorial it says that Adolphe Albrecht Vaudrey
is Norman Vaudrey cousin, every where else it gives his name as
Vaudrey Adolph Albrecht
Unable to check my data base at the moment.

07/08/1915    23/05/1916    Lt, Capt    Vaudrey Adolph    Albrecht    5 Reserve Aeroplane Squadron, 5 Reserve Squadron

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 10, 2015, 08:39:51 PM
The source data of the 1911 Census shows 22 year old Vaudrey Adolphe Albrecht resident with Sir William Henry Vaudrey with occupation as Army Student.  Address= the Gables, Buxton. The Summary Schedule on Ancestry has changed the order a little. His Mother was Florence Mary Vaudrey.  Daughter of Henry and brother to Sir William who was Norman's Father.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 11, 2015, 11:19:04 AM
Tim Bell & Timberman,

Thank you to both of you for your new information.

I see that he was awarded the MC under date 14th January 1916 (to date from 1.1.16), which in view of Timberman's excellent discovery that he was at that time with No.5 Reserve Squadron RFC makes one wish to learn of the details of this award. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 12, 2015, 07:59:49 AM
Vaudrey Adolph Albrecht

Philip,
Further to the previous posts:
7 RAS under instruction 22.10.1915.
06.01.1916 - Gazetted Flying Officer branch.
24.03.1916 - Gazetted as Flight Commander 5 RS Castle Bromwich.
October 1916 - Gazetted Flight Commander and on 10.05.1917 as Sqn Commander, both 14 Sqn Ismailia.
03.08.1918 - Gazetted Sqn Commander 97 Sqn.

As he was only appointed to the FO branch on 06.01.1916 could his MC (01.01.1916) be a non-immediate Manchesters award?

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Bob.NB on October 12, 2015, 06:01:28 PM
Philip,
A bit more on Vaudrey Adolph Albrecht:

He applied for and obtained his Aviator Certificate No.1703, issued to him on 7 September 1915. He had gained his certificate testing in a, Maurice Farman Biplane, at the Military School in Birmingham. From August 1915 through May 23, 1916, he served with 5 Reserve Squadron. Vaudrey subsequently returned to the Western Front, and flew �Bombers� operationally over the Western Front. He was Officer Commanding 97 Squadron Royal Air Force � (he wrote a summary history of 97 Squadron�s services in France, detailing their bombing raids in France, Belgium and Germany - see the index of �Cross and Cockade� for details). He also served with 97 Squadron in India on the North West Frontier (Waziristan) in support of operations during the Third Afghan War in 1919 (and in addition is credited with starting the first �Air Mail� service in the Indian Subcontinent between Karachi to Bombay).
Although Vaudrey intended to make a career out of flying, his ambitions were dealt a cruel blow when on 3 March 1924, his �Sopwith Snipe� which he was flying as an �instructor� collided mid-air over Duxford Aerodrome, with an �Avro No 2� aeroplane. Both aircraft crashed to the ground, with the loss of life to two personnel, one from each aircraft � and very serious injuries to Vaudrey Albrecht. As a consequence of the severity of his injuries, Vaudrey resigned shortly thereafter from the Royal Air Force.
He married first in 1923 but was divorced in 1927.
Vaudrey A. Albrecht, died at his Derbyshire home in Littleover on 7 September 1944

The Derby Daily Telegraph issue of 11 September 1944, carried the following obituary (and a photograph of him in Royal Air Force uniform);
�Death of Major Who Was Great Traveller.
Major Vaudrey. A. (Mick) Albrecht, CBE (sic), MC, who died suddenly at his home at Hillcrest, Blagreaves Lane, Littleover,  at the age of 56, spent much of his life travelling in many parts of the world. He served with the Manchester Regiment during the last war, but was for some time attached to the Royal Flying Corps, for which he volunteered. He continued to fly after the war, and in 1926 was involved in a mid-air collision. He was severely injured and consequently invalided out of the service. He still travelled extensively, and on one occasion made the trip up the Amazon River. At the beginning of the present war he was commissioned as a Flight-Lieutenant in the R.A.F.V.R., and was stationed in London, until he was invalided out a few months ago. In December, 1941, he married an Australian lady who died three months later.�

There is also an obituary in the Derby Evening Telegraph which states that he left an estate of �36,000 - a lot of money in those days.
He was a great friend of James Stewart Harper MC (The Manchester Regiment's first MC) to whom he left a bequest in his will.

In �Taming The Tiger: The Story of the India General Service Medal 1908-1935' only an estimated 15 x India General Service Medals 1908, with the GV first obverse and clasp �Afghanistan N.W.F. 1919� were awarded to all-ranks of Manchester Regiment (10 officers & 5 other ranks), all of whom qualified for the respective medal and clasp while serving on attachment to other units but are named to the Manchester Regiment. Albrecht is shown on the medal roll (ref WO 100/I20/486) as a Captain, attached to 97 Squadron Royal Air Force.


Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 13, 2015, 11:21:35 AM
Charlie & Bob.NB,
                                 V.A.Albrecht

First of all, I say "thank you" to both of you for the interest you have shown following my original post concerning this officer.

To Charlie, I say, of course you are right re your remarks concerning the award of the MC.

To Bob.NB, I write an especial "thanks" for the quite extensive life story of this officer that you have troubled to place before us.   The circumstances concerning the mid air collisions on the 3rd March 1924 were of particular sadness and not unknown in my time.

There cannot be much more to write about this soldier / airman, but perhaps, I should also say that amongst his medals would surely be the "Mons Star".  Thanks again to all concerned in researching the interesting career of this officer.  PhilipG
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Bob.NB on October 15, 2015, 10:13:39 AM
V A Albrecht's medal group
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 15, 2015, 11:44:25 AM
Bob.NB,

Thanks again. Very impressive. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 15, 2015, 07:58:03 PM
This forum never ceases to amaze and then Bob produces some medals!

1st Bttn War Diary 9th January 1915 - "Rested in Billets. Lieut V A Albrecht joined the battalion for duty."
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 23, 2015, 01:02:53 PM
Capt Percy Ainsworth 4 T.D.S. RAF, late Lieut 9th Bttn Manchesters, late 8362 Cpl in 17th Manchesters

Warehoseman Born 1890 St Marks, Aged 24y 7 m when enlisted 3/9/14. 5�71/2� LCpl 9/9/14. Revert to Pr 25/11/14   Disch for Commission in MChr R 16/4/15. Fa Edward James Ainsworth. Res Colwyn? St Anns? Mo Isabelle?  Brother Jack. Sister Isobel

Entered Gallipoli with 9th Bttn 19/8/1915.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 24, 2015, 12:00:33 PM
                       2nd. Lt. (later Captain) Percy Ainsworth : 9th Manchesters & No. 4 T.D.S., RAF

In connection with this officer's service with No. 4 Training Depot Station and mentioned above, I note that sixteen officers and one Air Mechanic died whilst attached to this unit.   A proportion of this number appear to have come from overseas, (e.g. 2nd Lt. W. S.Murray RAF, from Maryland, USA), and were buried in Eastham village churchyard.

This fact suggests to me that the Depot was located in that area, which I believe is on the Wirral, but exactly from where the unit operated, I have not been able to ascertain.

 An interesting annotation on Ainsworth's MIC indicates that his 1914-15 Star was returned to the Authorities in 1936.  Unfortunately, for what reason this return was made has defeated me on account of the quality of the handwriting.  However, I could venture to suggest that the word could be "scrapped".  Those with better eyesight could, perhaps, assist? PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 26, 2015, 07:43:10 AM
Percy Ainsworth

Seconded to the RFC and Gazetted FO(O) on 08.10.1916
Gazetted Flying Officer from FO (Observer) 07.04.1917
63 Sqn Mesopotamia 15.11.1917
Capt. 4 TDS March 1918

4TDS was at Hooton Park on the Wirral

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 27, 2015, 07:36:32 AM
Charlie,

              Percy Ainsworth
Thank you once again. How do you interpret "Gazetted Flying Officer from FO (Observer) 7.4.17"? Does this means he was now a qualified pilot?   Have you a view on why he returned his medal to the Authorities in 1936?  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 27, 2015, 08:22:53 AM
Percy Ainsworth

Philip,
I understand "Gazetted Flying Officer from FO (Observer) 7.4.17" to mean that he qualified as a pilot. I do not have access to his MiC. He would, as an officer, have had to apply for his medals, when he did this should be indicated somewhere on the MiC. Perhaps the 14/15 Star was wrongly named and was therefore returned and scrapped and a correctly named one issued. Another possibility is that, if I remember correctly, the Star and the medals were issued separately. The Star could possibly not be delivered as he had moved and was returned by the Post Office and eventually scrapped.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on October 27, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
another one Philip.

2/Lt john,porter,yeates dickey
1/5th manchesters
D.coy
wounded 7th august 1915
member of Manchester university OTC 1914
Higgins house,market st,colne
died in Leicester infirmary 17-7-1946
resided rookery nook,peatling parva,rugby
joined RFC/RAF,date unknown

his brother captain Robert,george,alexander dickey was also with the 5th battalion,died at greystokes hospital blackpool on 14-11-1918 of pneumonia caused by gas poisoning.

sons of dr Archibald+marion dickey,higgins house,colne

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 28, 2015, 07:35:45 AM
Mack,

Thank you.  I think the number listed has now reached 70. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 28, 2015, 10:59:22 AM
Charlie,

Percy Ainsworth

Thank you for your observations.  Somewhat dramatically, the medal was returned to the War Office on 26th March 1936. For what purpose and why has defeated me, although I have a theory with which I shall not burden you. Most puzzling. Thanks again. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on October 28, 2015, 11:14:38 AM
Does your theory include Germany, the Rhineland and something like why did we bother 20 years ago?
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 28, 2015, 10:32:16 PM
Charlie,

Exactly. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 31, 2015, 11:55:10 AM
Charlie,

   Percy Ainsworth

An annotation on the MIC indicated that the issue of this officer's BWM & VM was undertaken by the Air Ministry.  I have assumed that they were also returned to the Authorities.   As a callow youth at the time of the incident, I recall the disquiet in the family, not least by my my uncle, late of the RND -Gallipoli, Beaumont Hamel, Gavrelle & Welsh Ridge, in respect of the situation.  Regards, PhilipG.                                                                                                                                                                   
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 01, 2015, 03:54:54 PM
         15212 Sergeant Herbert Crux Minty  :  52nd.Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

This NCO was stationed at No. 1 School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping which was located at Stonehenge, Wiltshire, an area which fortunately avoided military hands post-war to become, today, a World Heritage Site.

On the 21st June 1918, together with 2nd Lt. L.S.Morck as his pilot, they were airborne in a DH9 aircraft No. C6082 over Salisbury Plain.  The reports indicate that they were both "killed whilst flying", but it would seem that when the aircraft crashed to the ground, whilst Sgt. Minty was killed, Lt Morck was alive, although badly injured.  However, Lt.Morck later died on the 26th June and he was buried in a cemetery in Sunderland.

Sergeant Minty is buried in Manchester Southern Cemetery.

It was interesting to read Sergeant Minty's military records, brief though they are.   For instance, I traced him from the 52nd Manchesters to a Medical Board Report dated 26th November 1917 which found him unfit for pilot duties, although fit for employment as an Observer.  Later, in 1918 he attended a short course at the School of Air Gunnery at Hythe in Kent.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 02, 2015, 09:21:26 AM
Sgt Minty

Philip
The aircraft developed engine trouble, 2/Lt Morck tried to turn back but the aircraft stalled during the turn, spun in and caught fire on the ground.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 03, 2015, 07:24:43 AM
Charlie,

Sgt.Minty.

Thank you for that accident report.   A memory from my teenage years :- "Never turn back to the airfield. Stick fully forward and go straight ahead".  Thanks again. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 05, 2015, 11:10:36 AM
  Re Sgt Minty and his unit.

The accident rate at No. 1 School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping must surely have been discouraging to potential flyers and ground staff arriving for training, duty etc., for I see that deaths on this unit numbered 31.   The usual humorous military welcome to arriving trainees of "You won't like it here, Jack" has, in this case, a modicum of truth about it.

The list of those who died at the base includes Air Mechanics, Flight Cadets and, interestingly, No. 156436 Boy Arthur Harry Andrews who was killed on the 23rd October 1918 age 17.  His mother lived in Radford, Nottingham, his name being engraved on the Screen Wall of Nottingham General Cemetery.

Another Boy, No. 156478 Albert Edward Robert Reynolds was killed whilst serving with the unit on the 15th April 1918 and is buried in Colchester Cemetery. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 10, 2015, 11:20:45 AM
  401713 Air Mechanic 1st Class Albert Edward Loughhead :Manchester Regt. & RAF

This airman DOW on the 15th September 1918.  He is recorded as being based at "X" Engine Repair Depot at the time of his death which, in view of the fact that he is buried in the Cairo War Memorial Cemetery suggests that the unit was based somewhere nearby.

I failed to discover the circumstances of his death and would be glad of any further info. upon this air mechanic, whose family lived in the Gorton district of Manchester.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 10, 2015, 04:15:23 PM
Phillip

X ERD was based at Abbassia.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 10, 2015, 04:48:39 PM
Charlie,

Thank you for that information. I'm intrigued with the DOW, which suggests combat. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 10, 2015, 06:11:56 PM
A bit more on Albert Loughhead. Soldiers effects records his death at 27 General Hospital Abassia.

The RAF roll of honour has him as being killed accidentaly

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/loughhead-a.e.-albert-edward

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/loughhead-a.e


Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 11, 2015, 07:37:58 AM
Charlie,

Re A. Loughhead

Thank you once again.  "Accidentally killed" seems more likely than that recorded in my RAF Roll of Honour which has him down as DOW, a description of his death which made me think he had, perhaps, been in airborne conflict.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mancpal on November 16, 2015, 03:17:17 PM
Philip,

Whilst marginally off topic (he wasn't a Mcrs officer) I have discovered that my great uncle began military life in 6th Manchester's in April 1908 and finished as a pilot in the RFC/RAF.
He was Private William Lewis Thomas, No341. He was attached to 1/1st E.Lancs RE signal section and served in Gallipoli before being admitted to 11th CCS with dysentery ending up in the 2nd Western General Hospital (central high school on Whitworth St where my father was a pupil ).
At some point afterwards (as 2nd Lt) he became a pilot of Bristol F2's with 48 squadron. His plane (A7227) was shot up by Jasta 11 on March 11th 1918 though he and Cpl J. Bowles escaped injury. This occurred near to St Quentin and although Lothar Von Richthofen claimed a "Bristol" at approximately the same time I've no way of proving it was he who was responsible. On April 23rd whilst flying another Bristol he was again involved in action this time sustaining a gunshot wound to the thigh described as "severe". I've no knowledge if his companion survived unscathed. The above information arrived with me via the GWF and in particular Trevor Henshaw who wrote about him in his book " The sky their battlefield". I have not seriously attempted to research Bill Thomas simply because I've no idea where to start with RFC/RAF. I have some basics such as copies of territorial enlistment papers, MIC (star returned for some reason) and a couple of other snippets. If you or any other members could advise me where to start looking and what to look for I'd be very grateful. I don't wish anyone to go out of their way, I simply require pointers in an unfamiliar sphere.

Finally, am I right in thinking that you are Philip G of Salisbury? If so I still have a couple of letters you wrote to me in 1993 when I stumbled on a photo of my grandfather at the Mcrs museum in Ashton and had little knowledge of how to begin researching him. Your encouragement then , along with that of Michael Stedman and latterly Paul Kendal have enthused me to carry on searching. From that single photo I now have amassed quite an amount of information on both my grandfather's military lives ( Cpl J Lamb 22nds and Pte H A Thomas 21sts). I've also added 5 other family members who served in the army/RFC though not yet in that much detail. I've also made several visits to the battlefields over a number of years and am currently trying to wheedle my way on to my sons school trip next year though I feel I may have to stowaway as it seems to be a popular trip among parents!

Best regards

Simon Lamb

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 17, 2015, 12:55:42 PM
Simon,

          2nd Lieutenant William Lewis Thomas  : 6th Manchesters & RAF

Thank you for your interesting and valuable contribution to the thread.

I can add little to the info. you gave in your post, but nevertheless, I had a look at what I have to hand.

My info. states that he was on an Offensive Patrol (with Cpl. Bowles as gunner) on the 11th March 1918, flying a Bristol F2b aircraft, when at noon in the St. Quentin region they were in combat with enemy aircraft.  I note that von Richthofen claimed victory in this encounter, which he said took place near Fresnoy-le-Petit at 1.10.p.m., presumably German time.

I traced the lieutenant to an operation on the 24th April 1918 (you state the date was 23rd April), whilst on a solo flight in a Bristol F2b.   During this flight he was hit by rifle fire and classified as WIA.   The report on air activities on 24th April 1918 indicates that flying conditions were such that airmen were driven low and casualties from ground fire were high.   Your report of a thigh wound could be attributed to such fire?

As regards gathering further info., I can offer little advice, although there is a colleague and excellent contributor to this thread, who frequently is able to add details to my research and, no doubt, when reading this piece will see if he can help.

In the matter of the 1993 letters, I hope that you were able to read my handwriting!   My visits to Ashton must have been the start of my "following in the footsteps of the 2nd battalion", which to some extent I am still doing.   Regards, PhilipG.



Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 17, 2015, 03:05:43 PM
Hello Simon,
Regarding the time of Lothar von Richthofen's victory claim, British and German time were as far as I can gather (and I am happy to be corrected) the same as of 10th March 1918.

You may already be aware of these sites which contain very useful information:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/
http://www.airhistory.org.uk
http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/page/26565-home
http://www.rafcommands.com
http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk

If I was starting to research RAF/RFC personnel apart from the obvious service record etc, the air history people lists would be a good place to start and if a casualty the RoH at the RAF museum site.


Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 19, 2015, 11:12:25 AM
Charlie,

There is an intriguing question here regarding the Time Zones which fixed the time the combat took place.

I understand that in the Great War, German occupied territory was in the Time Zone of GMT + 1.   The fact that the squadron report that the combat took place at noon, suggests that the squadron was working on GMT on that day.

Alternatively, of course, it could be that Richthofen's claim was in respect of another combat altogether and that Lt Thomas' combat was with another EA in the same area.     It's another Great War mystery of which there are many!  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 19, 2015, 12:05:30 PM
Philip,
From the Official History 1918 vol 1

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on November 19, 2015, 03:46:51 PM
Charlie,

Many thanks.    That was a really good find!  I reckon the squadron never altered the clock. The time of noon should have been 1 p.m., otherwise during the March Offensive the British and German clock times would not have been the same, nor would they have reverted to a difference of one hour in mid-April.  Do you agree?  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on November 19, 2015, 08:11:45 PM
Philip, yes I agree. It would be very easy to forget to put the clocks on an hour under such circumstances. I wonder how many of us would remember if it wasn't continualy mentioned on the radio/TV or in the newspaper!

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mancpal on November 26, 2015, 09:01:40 PM
Charlie
Thanks for the recommendations . I have briefly looked at 2 of them and look forward to getting my teeth into all of them asap.

Simon
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mancpal on November 30, 2015, 09:38:02 PM
Philip and Charlie,
I think the changing of the clock may well be the key.
Trevor Henshaw has the other Bristol shot up around 1pm as being A7114, the observer being injured.
Interesting stuff
Thanks.

Simon
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 05, 2015, 05:05:28 PM
             127478 Air Mechanic 2nd Class Ernest Lloyd : Manchester Regt. & RAF

Information regarding this airman is sparse, except that he served with the Manchesters (battalion not known) before his transfer to the Royal Air Force.  He had two Army Service numbers - 5346 and 44185 whilst serving with the Regiment.  He died on the 9th April 1920 at the age of 28 and is buried in Ruyton (St John the Baptist) churchyard.   PhilipG
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on December 05, 2015, 08:24:39 PM
Ernest Lloyd

Philip,
As you have already stated not much information is available on him (Mack probably has his life story up to him being transferred to the RFC   :D ). His RAF number tells us he was transferred to the RFC sometime upto February 1918. He has an entry in the Muster Roll of 1 April 1918:

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000106162-lloyd-e

His rank of Pte 2 is according to some sources one for a Driver second class. As the Muster Roll lists him as a labourer I suspect he was the the equivilant of an AC2 ACH/GD. Technical and Admin Airmen were given the rank of Air Mechanic and Clerk prior to the new rank structure in 1919.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 07, 2015, 04:11:29 PM
Charlie,
 Thank you.  I did not realise that there was a rank of A.Mech.3.   I see there is a Rigger (Aero) in the list in the rank of A.Mech 3. That seems a low rank for a man operating in such a responsible trade.

Your mention of the rank and trade of AC2,ACH/GD reminded me of my youth during a brief stay at ACDC, Heaton Park, where I heard such airmen described unkindly as the "lowest form of animal life in the RAF".  Probably by the Station Warrant Officer?  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on December 07, 2015, 04:55:02 PM
Philip,
It seems the RFC/RAF was perhaps more confident, than the Army in general, in their training and also the abilities of the lower ranks.

Who else but a WO would have such a descriptive vocabulary.

Charlie

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on December 13, 2015, 07:54:46 PM
Charlie,

   Percy Ainsworth

An annotation on the MIC indicated that the issue of this officer's BWM & VM was undertaken by the Air Ministry.  I have assumed that they were also returned to the Authorities.   As a callow youth at the time of the incident, I recall the disquiet in the family, not least by my my uncle, late of the RND -Gallipoli, Beaumont Hamel, Gavrelle & Welsh Ridge, in respect of the situation.  Regards, PhilipG.                                                                                                                                                                   

Philip,

Is this 17th Bttn Pte 8362 Percy Ainsworth. Enlisted 3/9/1914 aged 24y 7m.  Promoted Cpl & L/Sgt 19/9/1914.  Chooses to Revert to Cpl 25/11/1914. Discharged to Commission 16/4/1915??
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 14, 2015, 11:00:06 AM
Tim Bell,

   Re Percy Ainsworth.

Thanks.   I think we must assume that to be the case. Regards. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 16, 2015, 04:08:16 PM
     2056 Private Charles Arthur Morris : Manchester Regt. & Royal Flying Corps

This soldier went overseas with the Manchesters on 5th May 1915, apparently destined for service in the Peninsular.  Alas, I have not been able to ascertain in which battalion he served.   I am aware, however, that he took a commission in the King's Liverpool Regt. and in due course transferred to the RFC still holding the rank of 2nd Lieutenant.


I have not been able to discover anything more about his squadron or his flying duties, either with the RFC or later with the RAF.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on December 16, 2015, 04:45:07 PM
Charles Morris
Hello Philip

He was on 204 Sqn in France, he was injured in flying accident on 14.12.1918 while flying a Sopwith Camel. Here is the casualty card (bottom left):

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/morris-c.a.-charles-a

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on December 16, 2015, 05:44:56 PM
Charles Morris

He's on the 1/6th Bttn 1914-15 Star Roll with the 2056 Number. It also shows a MM.

T
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 17, 2015, 07:04:35 AM
Charlie & Tim Bell,

Re Charles Morris

Thank you for that interesting info. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 19, 2015, 07:40:56 AM
    Re Charles Morris

I note that in 204 Squadron deaths of All Ranks numbered 30.  One of those killed was  the "Air Ace" -  Captain C.R.R. Hickey, formerly of the Canadian Mounted Rifles and a contemporary of Lt. Morris.

Hickey was recorded as having 21 "victories", but sadly was killed on the 3 October 1918  following a mid-air collision.  The CWGC record that Hickey was the recipient of the DFC & Bar.  Elsewhere, he is recorded as additionally being awarded a DSO in November 1918.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on December 19, 2015, 12:28:54 PM
 Bit more on Captain C.R.R. Hickey

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/canada/hickey.php

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 20, 2015, 07:57:46 AM
Timberman,

Thank you.  As regards the source indicating that Hickey had been awarded the DSO, I think it was mistaken and that no such award was made. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 24, 2015, 10:16:28 AM
    245640 Private Walter Gibson : Manchester Regiment & Royal Air Force

This soldier's military service began with his enlistment in the Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry in which unit he was allocated the number 110612.  For whatever reason, he later transferred to the Manchesters and in due course joined the RAF receiving another service number, namely, 319955.

As is often the case in research, one would like the answers to several unknowns.  For instance, what prompted his joining the Manchester Regiment and to what battalion was he posted?   Lastly, in what rank did he serve during his service with the RAF?   As earlier threads have revealed, he could have continued as a private soldier or achieved AM status of various grades.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on December 24, 2015, 12:23:20 PM
Walter Gibson
Philip

I would suggest that his move to the Manchesters was prompted by the War Office. 7 Officers and 125 ORs from the DLOY were absorbed into the 12th Bn on 24.09.1918. The Bn was then retitled 12th (DLOY) Bn the Manchester Regt.

There may be more to his story than first meets the eye. His RAF number is from a block issued to RAF Cadets in October 1918. He is also listed, but only as a Pte, in the Air History database which does not include ORs unless they were Aircrew or died in service. He hasn't a CWGC entry.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on December 24, 2015, 09:46:10 PM
Charlie,

re Walter Gibson

Once again thank you.  The detail you give is most interesting and helpful. Thanks.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on January 02, 2016, 01:40:47 PM
2nd/Lt F.H.Thorp RFC & 10th Bn. Manchester Regiment.

Lieutenant Thorp was a pilot serving with No.13 Squadron RFC, a squadron equipped with two-seater bi-plane aircraft of a type known as the RE8.  He died of wounds on 31st March 1918, a period of the Great War when the British had "their backs to the wall" and were in retreat on account of the German breakthrough.

The strategy of the RFC (within a few days to become the RAF) was to stifle the German advance as best they could and in doing so casualties were by no means light, for instance, the total losses on the 30th March and 31st March were 19 aircraft and crews.

The RE8 aircraft as previously mentioned is designed for an operational crew of two, so it was interesting to note that to achieve maximum effort against the enemy, two RE8 squadrons were despatching aircraft into action without an Observer or gunner, relying on the pilot alone to bring down any attacker.   What was achieved by this is not clear, but two of the aircraft in action on this basis were shot down on 30th March, the pilots being wounded and in the case of Lt.Thorp, he sadly succumbed to his wounds the following day.   He is buried in Aubigny Comm. Cem. Extn.   PhilipG.

Philip
Frederick Horace Thorp
Lived at Lyndhurst, Granville Rd, Fallowfield. Commissioned as a 2/Lt 25 October 1916. He spent 3 months with the Officer Cadet Battalion in Oxford and joined the 24th Bn on 29 December 1916. Promoted to Lt on 25 September 1917, he transferred to the RFC on 9 November 1917 as an Observer on probation.

It would appear he was an Observer at the time of his death, the Aircraft being piloted by 2/LT CV Frith. His casualty card is here (top right)

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/thorp-f.h.-frederick-horace

He died of a GSW to the abdomen - 3rd card down on the lefthand side.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000260431-thorp-f.h.-frederick-horace

Sorry Philip he was involved in another incident whilst flying with 2/Lt Frith in RE8 C5089 on the 28th March, the Aircraft suffered battle damage, both Frith and Thorp were unscathed.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 03, 2016, 03:31:16 PM
Charlie,

        Re F.H.Thorp

Thank you for the clarification. The squadron report at this end, lists only Lt. Thorp in his aircraft's operations on that day, hence the assumption that Thorp was a pilot.   Referring to actions on the 28th March 1918 which you mention, one RE8 squadron machine operating on that day was being flown with ballast in the rear cockpit - no trim tabs in those days. PhilipG.
 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on January 04, 2016, 09:56:56 AM
Philip,
I do not think that the idea of Lt Thorp flying alone should be dismissed completely. It is very odd that a pilot is not mentioned at all in relation to the incident, which makes me think that Lt Thorp may have been piloting the aircraft even though he was "only" an Observer. Every other record I have seen has mentioned both Pilot and Observer giving their respective fates. I presume that the crew would normally only fly together. As there is nothing recorded for 2/Lt Frith for that date one must assume that they were not flying together on that occasion. Or do you think that Aircrew were arbitrarily paired together for each sortie?

As an aside 2/Lt Frith seemed to be a little accident prone, on the 21 April he delivered an Aircraft to the Sqn and managed to finish his landing in some trees. He continued to serve in the RAF post war and is recorded as having been injured in a Motorcycle accident when he was the passenger ( the record does not state whether he was acting as an Observer or a Gunner) in the sidecar of a Motorcycle being flown by FO Wormell.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 05, 2016, 01:15:57 PM
Charlie,

Re Lt. F.H.Thorp

Thank you for your observations re Lt. Thorp, which suggests that Thorp, even though his qualifications were that required for Observer duties could have been flying "solo".  I will return to the other matter raised shortly.

As I pointed out in my original post, this was the time of "backs to the wall" and as  the RFC was operating "low down" helping our ground troops and  the maximum number of aircraft were required, it was perhaps deemed that it would be in order for an experienced Observer to pilot an aircraft.

In this regard, I have the impression that sometimes suitable aircrew officers received pilot training on the station.  Thorp's flying experience could be an illustration of this theory?

I do not think it would be difficult to learn to fly a 2-seater bi-plane (but I may be prejudiced).  The controls and instrumentation would be basic, and provided the instructor pointed out the vital importance of always maintaining sufficient airspeed and indicating known idiosyncrasies of the machine concerned, a novice should be able to cope.  In the matter of landing, however, initially this may be a difficult feat to perform.  But a calm and experienced pilot talking to his pupil in the front cockpit through a Gosport Tube should be able to guide his pupil to a satisfactory landing, albeit one classified as "an arrival".

I give below a few examples of solo flights in March 1918.:

59 Sqdn   Lt. L.S.Gray  WIA  - RE8
53 Sqdn   Lt F.J.Pullen  WIA  - RE8
35 Sqdn   2/Lt J.Edelstein  WIA - AW FK8
48 Sqdn   2/Lt R.S.Herring WIA - Bristol F2b

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on January 05, 2016, 02:50:54 PM
Lt Thorp
Philip
After a bit of digging I have found something very interesting that should go some way to confirming that Lt Thorp could well have been flying solo.

The RE8 and AW FK8 were fitted as standard with rudimentary controls for the Observer. From Wikipedia re the RE8:

Very basic flight controls were installed in the observer's cockpit � these folded out of the way when not in use. They were connected to the elevators, rudder, and throttle, but not to the ailerons, and were plainly intended to give observers a chance to make a forced landing if the pilot was killed or incapacitated rather than to offer true dual control.

It would have made perfect sense for the Pilot to give his Observer tuition in the use of these controls. I suspect that the majority, if not all, Observers aspired to gaining their pilots wings, and as you have already suggested it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that if time and circumstances permitted, the Pilot would be badgered into giving his Observer more "in depth" tuition and allowing him to fly from the front cockpit.

If this were the case, I would imagine that those Observers that were deemed competent would be used to maximize the Squadron's strength in the time of crisis, as this point in the war certainly was.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 06, 2016, 07:18:26 AM
Charlie,

Great research and I agree with what you say. No ailerons!  There must have been some "ropey" turns and their absence for use must have prevented carrying out "side-slips" - so useful in undertaking an emergency landing.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 06, 2016, 07:55:29 AM
Charlie,

Lt.Thorp

In an earlier post you raised the interesting question of whether or not crews stayed together.   I tend to think that "exigencies of the service" would come into the matter.  For instance, who was available.  In any case, it would be prudent to give newcomers operational experience by allocating them to more experienced flyers.  Just a thought.

I think as an Observer or Gunner, I would have "wangled" a trip with any pilot rather than fly with 2nd Lt. Frith.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on January 23, 2016, 03:35:04 PM
Philip
A bit more on some of your Airmen

Albert Loughhead
Transferred to the RFC on 3.9.16, 65 Training Station, 124 Sqn (02.07.1918), RD EEF (04.08.1918), X ERD (23.08.1918).

On 17.03.1917 he was ordered to do something he did not want to do. He was charged for "Lazyness in carrying out an order, insolence to a NCO" and "Insolence to a F/Sgt". What ever it was, he had 28 days in jail to consider his actions.

Ernest Lloyd
Served in France from 27.07.1916 to 09.08.1917 with the Manchesters. With the RAF he served at 2 ARD.

Walter Gibson
I have been unable to find a service record for him, which strengthens my belief that he may have remustered to Aircrew and continued to serve post war.

Charlie



Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 23, 2016, 06:04:05 PM
Charlie,
Thanks once again for the additional info.   In the case of Loughhead it seems as if he had a spell in the "glasshouse".  PhilipG.
Title: Lieut W A Foster Manchester Regt & RAF, friend of Wilfred Owen
Post by: Foster on January 26, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
I hope that a fourm member can help me with regard to Lt William A Foster Manchester Regt and RAF. I'm researching Lt Foster and I know that he served in the Manchester Regiment along with Wilfred Owen, in fact he is the next name in the Army List to Owen. I know that Foster died in 1919 and is buried in his home town of Poole.
I have hopefully! attached two photos containing Wilfred Owen in the 5th Batt of the Manchester Regt and another with the Artists Rifles.
I'm wondering if any members can identify Foster on either of these photo's
PS If I haven't managed to attach the photos to this post I will try to adfd them.
Thanks
Title: Re: Lieut W A Foster Manchester Regt & RAF, friend of Wilfred Owen
Post by: charlie on January 26, 2016, 02:38:00 PM
Welcome to the forum Foster.

He died of Flu and pneumonia at Chiseldon Military Hospital. The address of his NoK was York House, Parkstone Rd, Poole.
There are various casualty cards for him here:

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/pages/raf_vault.php?&RAF-titel=foster&RAF-initials=w.a.&van=1

I am sure our resident expert on all things flying and Wilfred Owen will be along to help you further.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 27, 2016, 10:26:55 AM
      2nd Lt. (Later Lieutenant) William Arthur Foster : 5th Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

Lieutenant Foster was born in 1897.  He left for active service in France on 29th July 1916.  He was transferred to the Royal Flying Corps in December 1917 and by the 23rd March 1918 was at Flying School in Hendon.

His flying training continued with a posting to No. 40 Training Squadron also at Hendon, followed by a transfer to No. 37 Training Depot Squadron at Yatesbury in September 1918, where his flying training ceased just after the end of hostilities. (If memory serves me correctly, the station was still in being in WW2 - training WOP/AG's).

Sadly, he became a victim of the influenza pandemic and on the 14th February 1919 was transferred to the military hospital in Chiseldon, where six days later he died of this terrible disease.  He is buried in Poole Cemetery.   I note that his father had a coal merchant's business in that town.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 28, 2016, 01:33:45 PM
Foster,

     Lt. W.A.Foster (re your photographs)

I have examined your photographs taken at Hare Hall Camp, Romford, depicting the cadet occupants of Wilfred Owen's hut and also the photograph of the officers of the 5th (Reserve) battalion of the Manchesters which was taken at Witley Camp in 1916.  Alas, I have not been able to ascertain whether or not Lieutenant Foster was part of either group.  Apart from Owen, I have been able to identify one cadet and, in respect of the photo of the officers, only Lt. Col. Ridge, who is sitting behind Wilfred Owen.

I am afraid this "non-success" is not unusual at this length of time.  I wonder if you have a specially posed photograph of Lt. Foster, for having such a photograph sometimes assists in identification in a group picture?

In passing, I would mention that Cadet Foster was one of Owen's army friends, these men incidentally, applying for commissions in the Manchesters.  Upon receiving his commission, Lt. Foster was posted overseas before Owen, the authorities considering Owen to have qualities which would be of advantage in making him an instructor.

Lastly, I see that Foster achieved the rank of Lieutenant during his lifetime.  In Wilfred Owen's case, he served throughout his commissioned military service in the rank of 2nd Lieutenant and it was only after his death in action that his back dated promotion appeared in the 2nd Manchesters' War Diary.  Very sad.  PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Foster on January 28, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
Philip
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post, its great that folks take to time to help others with their knowledge.

In terms of Foster I have not managed to find a photo of him at all to use as a comparison. Would he have had a photo taken for his RAF training/ pilots licence?

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on January 28, 2016, 05:59:34 PM
Foster,

Thank you for your very kind remarks. I have noted your query. As this thread has a specialist flavour about it (Transfers of Mcr. Regt. Officers to  RFC etc), may I suggest that you pose your question re "photo/RAF training/pilots" to the main Forum?  In the meantime, I send you my regards. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Pete Th on January 31, 2016, 12:41:41 PM
Philip, I came across this man while searching a supplementary list to the Manchesters 1914-1915 Star Roll:

Private 2354 James John Williamson, 1st/5th Manchesters - Disembarked 25.09.14 - subsequently commissioned Royal Air Force

Regards
Pete
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 01, 2016, 07:05:32 AM
Pete Th,

Thanks, Pete.  I have put him as next on the list. Take care, PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 02, 2016, 08:24:51 AM
  2354 Pte James John Williamson : 5th Bn.Manchester Regt. & RFC


This soldier, who was a draughtsman in civil life, left England on the 25th September 1914 destined for service in Egypt.  However, in May 1916 he was discharged from the Army and transferred to the Royal Flying Corps in the rank of AM2.  By November of that year he had been promoted to AM1.

There is a record that in September 1916 he was serving with 17 Squadron RFC with the British Salonika Forces until 26th July 1917 and I have assumed that it was during that period that he was promoted to the rank of Captain; again I am assuming, in connection with aircrew duties.

After hostilities, he saw distinguished service with the RAF and the records state that in 1940 he was holding the rank of Group Captain.   In this connection, there is comment that in WW2 he was a Station Commander of a unit which I believe was either an Air Observers School or a Bombing & Gunnery School.   Apparently, the Station was under attack from the air on occasion and it was during these attacks that Williamson displayed military qualities which it seems, resulted in the award to him of the CBE, a decoration which would add to the previous award of the AFC.   As regards the AFC, I have been unable to discover any details as to the date or event which led to his receiving this medal.

Further promotion followed and I see that in April 1944, he was  holding the rank of Air Commodore.  Despite detailed research, I have been unable to ascertain whether or not he served with the RFC as a Pilot or Observer, but certainly in respect of his WW2 service, I noted he was quoted as having the pilot qualification.    PhilipG.

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 02, 2016, 09:34:38 AM
JJ Williamson

Philip, a bit more on this man:

He was Gazetted as a T2/Lt on 27.07.1917 and as a 2/Lt Flying Officer on 24.08.1918, so he was presumably employed as an Observer or Gunner previous to him being appointed as a FO. He is listed as a Lt in the Air Force list for April 1918.

As a 2/Lt he underwent a course of instruction, starting on 31.08.1917, at the School of Aerial Gunnery at Aboukir, he was also on 195 Training Squadron at Abu Sueir. While employed as a Pilot Instructor (A/Capt) at 5 Fighting School, which was also in the Middle east, he was involved in an accident while flying in AVRO 504 D5488 on 08.01.1919. He received slight injuries to his face and was admitted to 88 General Hospital in Cairo and discharged to duty on 20.01.1919.

During his time with the Aerial Fighting School at Heliopolis (this could be 5FS, but I am not sure) he was admitted to the Infectious Diseases Hospital at Shoubra (Cairo) with suspected dyptheria which turned out to be tonsilitis (lucky man). He was discharged from the hospital on 24.04.1918.

His AFC was Gazetted on 07.02.1919 for services in Egypt. He was also Gazetted on 11.04.1919 as being awarded the "Chevalier de l'Ordre de St Saveur"

There is an interesting post re the award of his CBE here: http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/01840.php

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 02, 2016, 05:02:35 PM
Charlie,

  J.J.Williamson

Thank you for your valuable contribution and I must thank Pete Th too, for bringing this man's name to my attention in the first place, an indication, I think, of the team work of this Forum. 

From AM2 to Air Commodore. What a career!    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 02, 2016, 07:50:43 PM
The Aerial Fighting School Heliopolis was, according to the IWM, renamed 5 Fighting School.
Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 15, 2016, 09:19:51 AM
2/Lt Leslie Gordon Taylor

Philip,
I found 2/Lt Taylor in the ICRC PoW lists. He was ex 9th Bn and was on 5 Sqn IAF, RAF, when he was captured on 22.08.1918 at Saargm�nd. He was held at St. Avold, Karlsruhe and Landshut.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 15, 2016, 10:00:06 AM
Charlie,

re L.G.Taylor

Thank you. This looks interesting. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 16, 2016, 03:53:10 PM
2nd Lt. Leslie Gordon Taylor : London Rifle Brigade,  9th  Bn. Manchesters, RFC & RAF

This officer's military career began with service as an OR in the London Rifle Brigade, a regiment of some repute and the one in which Sgt. Belcher won his VC whilst with their 1/5th battalion.  Taylor went overseas in September 1915 and was later commissioned in the 9th Manchesters (Sept. 1917).

In due course, he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps for aircrew duties.  In this connection, he later attended at various flying training schools, e.g. Observers School of Aerial Gunnery at Hythe in April 1918 and the School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping on the 8th July 1918.  Finally, Taylor reached No. 97 (IF) RAF squadron on the 18th of that month.

His stay with the squadron was not to be over long as the following will indicate.

On the 22nd August 1918, 2nd Lt Taylor was airborne in a Handley Page aircraft of the 0/400 type numbered B8803.  The remainder of the crew consisted of Lt. D.F.Burton and 2nd Lt. R.F.Glazebrook.  Their operation was a night bombing attack on Volpersweiler airfield and railway installations at Herzing.  Unfortunately, their aircraft was hit by enemy anti-aircraft fire and subsequently crashed, the crew being made POW's.

The records indicate that on the 29th November 1918 Taylor was interned in Prison 162, having been transferred to Landshut from Karlsruhe on the 7th November.  He was repatriated on the 14th December 1918.

As to Taylor's "RAF trade", I see from the records dated March 1919 that he was a "HP Pilot".  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 16, 2016, 05:47:25 PM
Philip,
As you predicted, very interesting and unusual. There cannot have been many ex Manchesters who flew 0/400s. 2/Lt Taylor must have been one of the Squadrons first losses on operations. The Sqn had moved to France earlier in the month and had only flown it's first operational sorties on the 19/20th August.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 17, 2016, 11:07:26 AM
Charlie,

 I have done some further research.   In the period 21st August - 23 August 1918, three of 97 (IF) Squadron's 0/400's (including Taylor's aircraft) carrying out night bombing raids, failed to return to base.  Crew losses numbered 8 officers and one Sergeant.   All were made POW. PhilipG.
 
 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 17, 2016, 02:25:29 PM
Thank you Philip, the only information I have been able to find as regards the aircraft establishment for Squadrons flying 0/400s is from 1 April 1918. The establishment was for 10 aircraft, so quite an attrition rate. Do you know if there was a specific length of time or number of operations for a Tour at that time? Or was it a case of flying till someone said you had done enough?

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 18, 2016, 06:53:56 AM
Charlie,

I tend to think it was a case of flying until someone or something required you to stop.  Similar arrangements seemed to apply to an organisation with which I was connected. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 21, 2016, 11:30:02 AM
1500 Pte Russell Walmsley  :  6th & 2/8th Manchesters, RFC & RAF

This soldier enlisted in the 6th Manchesters and arrived for service in Gallipoli on 5th May 1915. Later, he served in the 2/8th battalion taking the Regimental Number 250108.  In January 1917 he was commissioned in the rank of 2nd Lieutenant and later that year joined the Royal Flying Corps, joining No. 17 Training Squadron on the 3rd December1917.  In due course, he qualified as as a Flying Officer and instructor, subsequently being posted to No. 8 Training Depot Squadron just before the end of hostilities.  He left the RAF in 1919.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 23, 2016, 01:25:03 PM
R.Walmsley

Looking at the number of casualties listed under the two Flying Training units in which Walmsley served, I found it to number 16, which seems excessive.  However, I recall in my day we had 4 fatal crashes in the first 6 weeks of Basic Training, in one of which, during night flying, my friend (aged 18) "spun in". I suppose learning to fly is never free of risk. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 25, 2016, 09:28:24 AM
408308 AM2 Arthur Houlgrave  :  6th Manchesters, RFC & RAF

This man enlisted in the 6th Bn. Manchester Regiment on the 11th December 1914 at the age of 32 and there is an assumption that he saw service with that battalion until, for reasons unknown, he transferred to the RFC.

He died, age 37 on the 14th November 1918.  His parents were domiciled in Accrington and no doubt this was the reason for his being buried in Accrington Cemetery.  After his death his wife was living in St. Anne's on Sea.

Unfortunately, the "Casualty Card" was destroyed in 1921, so the reason for his death is unknown, although one wonders if his death was connected with his previous army service. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on February 25, 2016, 10:15:36 AM
Philip,
Two more Officers that I have come across:

2/Lt Charles Anderton, previously 2248 & 275008 1/7th Bn.

2/Lt Clarence Beagle, 20th Bn

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 25, 2016, 09:52:42 PM
Charlie,

Many thanks.  I have put them on my list for attention. Regards, PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on February 27, 2016, 11:21:44 AM
2248 Private (later 2nd Lt.) Charles Anderton : 1/7th Manchesters & RAF

This soldier served in Gallipoli, arriving there on the 6th May 1915.  Later he was given a new Regimental number, namely, 275008.   Some time afterwards, he was commissioned in the Regiment and was successful in making a transfer to the Royal Air Force.

I have no details as to his duties in the RAF, e.g. whether or not he was a pilot or observer, but I presume he followed what seemed to have been the usual procedure, reporting to the RAF station in Reading for training.

I note that he applied for his medals in September 1919 when he was living in the Hulme district of Manchester.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 19, 2016, 11:57:58 AM
                      2nd Lt. Clarence Beagle : 20th Manchesters, RFC & RAF

This officer was formerly a representative based in London working for the Manchester firm of Rylands Ltd. and enlisted in the Manchester Regiment in August 1915.   In due course, he effected a transfer to the Royal Flying Corps for eventual training as an Observer, arriving at No. 1 School  of Aeronautics in November 1917 with onward transfer to No. 38 Training Squadron, a posting followed a few weeks later to No. 1 (Aux) School of Air Gunnery.

By early February 1918 he was sent to Italy attached to No. 14 Wing for further service with No. 34 Squadron RFC.   In June 1918, he left No.34 Squadron to fly with No. 139 Squadron RAF and it was with that squadron that I traced an operation of the 4th July 1918 in which Beagle took part when flying near Asolo.

With his pilot, Lt. H.C.W.Walters, he was airborne in a Bristol F2b aircraft No. C916.  During combat with an Albatros DIII they were successful in the destruction of this enemy aircraft.   (Interestingly, Lt. Walters made no less that 6 "victory" claims whilst he was on operations in Italy).

Lieutenant Beagle returned to the Home Establishment in September 1918 and later served at No.1 School of Aeronautics, being classified as "unfit to fly".  He finally left the service in March 1919.

He is recorded as being a recipient of the Bronze Medal (Italy).

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on March 19, 2016, 01:49:04 PM
Clarence formerly served as driver 663 Clarence beagle,2nd east riding brigade RFA,enlisting on 5th may 1909 until his termination of engagement on 4th may 1913.
he was a draper working for moss of water house lane,hull
he and his wife emigrated to Canada in 1923 and returned in 1931
resided 32 sidmouth st,hull
born 18-6-1893
he died in Eastbourne in 1970 aged 77

mack ;D
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 19, 2016, 04:10:17 PM
Mack,
 Thank you.   Whilst aware of its prominent building in High Street, Manchester, I have  never really known what Rylands Ltd. specialised in, except they were something to do with textiles.  Your reference to him being a draper ties in with that presumably.  In my very early youth there was a searchlight on Rylands' roof pointing towards  Barton Aerodrome. presumably to help flyers during night flying.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 09, 2016, 04:20:32 PM
        No. 6433 Private Harry Scott : 16th Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

This soldier transferred to the Royal Flying Corps from the Manchesters taking up a new service number in the Corps of 133920.  I do not know in which capacity he would serve.   Later he was transferred to the Labour Corps and received a new number of 247786 which may suggest, perhaps, a deterioration  in his health consequent upon his service with the Manchesters.

The records state that he went overseas with the battalion on the 8th November 1915.  His name and photograph are recorded in the "Book of Honour" whilst serving in No 3 Platoon of "A" Coy. of the 16th Manchesters.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 09, 2016, 07:49:09 PM
Harry Scott

Philip,
Harry Scott is on the RAF Muster Roll and is listed as being a Pte 2 Labourer, having previously been employed as an AM3 with the RFC. His RFC trade is given as "Misc (Labour)". His RAF number is one from a block issued to transfers to the RFC in February 1918. The Muster Roll gives his date of transfer as 29 January 1918.

Charlie

Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 09, 2016, 10:50:47 PM
 Charlie,

Many thanks for that interesting information.   Somehow, I sensed you would come up with the answer as you often do.  There is possibly a bit of a flavour of ACH/GD in respect of his service with his new masters.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 10, 2016, 09:55:31 AM
                2nd Lt. H. F. Jones  : 22nd Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC 

Contributed by my expert colleague - Charlie - to whom I give my thanks :-

"I believe it to be the HF Jones who was on 43 Squadron and appointed as FO (O) in June 1917. Flying with 2nd Lt. JGH Frew on 28.03.1917 in  a Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter they lost their way, the aircraft stalled near the ground 'landing' at 16 Sqn's base."

PhilipG
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 10, 2016, 10:40:06 AM
             Re 2nd Lt. H.F.Jones

With reference to Jones' flight with 2nd Lt. Frew, I note that on the 16th April 1917, Lt. Frew together with No. 1130 Air Mechanic First Class Frank Russell as gunner were airborne in a Sopwith Strutter aircraft No.7804 of 43 Squadron, operating in the La Bassee area.   At 6.30.am. (British time) they had taken off, commencing a Line Patrol and recce.  During an engagement with the enemy, Lt. Frew was wounded and subsequently taken prisoner.

Air Mechanic Russell was reported KIA.  However, Russell is buried in Douai Communal Cemetery which was used from time to time by the Germans as a burial ground for British POW's.  It could supposed, that like his pilot, Russell was also wounded, made a POW and later died in enemy hands.   PhilipG..
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 10, 2016, 10:56:25 AM
Philip
It looks like he died due to the engagement with the enemy.

Rank:
    Air Mechanic 1st Class
Service No:
    1130
Date of Death:
    16/04/1917
Age:
    22
Regiment/Service:
    Royal Flying Corps
 
    43rd Sqdn.
Grave Reference:
    A. 13.
Cemetery:
    DOUAI COMMUNAL CEMETERY
Additional Information:
    Son of Mr. and Mrs. Russell, of 65, Elm Grove, Brighton

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 10, 2016, 11:06:35 AM
On the soldiers effects register, it says that the date of death was
officially accepted as being on the 16/4/17, so maybe this was confirmed
at a later date by 2nd Lt. Frew.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 10, 2016, 11:16:34 AM
Timberman,
 
Thank you.  I'm sure you are right. Take care. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 10, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
Philip,

Harry Scott
It does seem strange that he later transferred to the Labour Corps. One would imagine that his employment with the RAF would have been of a lighter nature than with the Labour Corps. I wonder if he was one of those hardy men who volunteered to work with the Graves Registeration Units.

HF Jones
Unfortunately I have not been able to ascertain his Christian names. It appears as though he did not apply for his medals so there is not a MiC to check and his casualty card is missing. The aircraft - A979 - was Struck off Charge due to the damage caused. Thank you for your kind words but I am by no means an expert :)

Philip, Timberman,
Frank Russell
He was pronounced dead on arrival at the PoW Hospital, St Clotilde, Douai. He had suffered GSWs to the heart, chest and abdomen. He was reported through the Red Cross as having died on the 14th, 15th and 16th of April. As the combat occured on the 16th it looks like someone at records got their Abacus out and decided that the 16th must have been his date of death.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 11, 2016, 07:17:36 AM
Charlie,

Thank you for your continuing interest.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 14, 2016, 05:16:14 PM
        Lt. James C. Walker :  Manchester Regt. RFC & RAF (205 Squadron)

This officer's military career began by serving with the King's Liverpools where he reached the rank of Corporal.   Still holding this rank, he was transferred to the Manchester Regiment with the service number of 44243.  Later, he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps in which service he was commissioned on the 1st May 1917.

On the 7th September 1918, together with his pilot, Lt. D.J.T. Mellor, Lt Walker was flying in a DH4 aircraft No. A 7587 of No. 205 RAF Squadron.  They had left their base that morning at 8.30.a.m. on a recce. patrol, but failed to return.  Both men were reported MIA, but later it was confirmed that Lt. Walker was a POW, whilst Lt. Mellor was reported as being KIA.  Lt. Mellor has no known grave and his name is recorded on the Arras Flying Services Memorial.

It is not known at which stage Lt. Mellor was killed.    If he was killed whilst airborne, it would fall to Lt. Walker to bring the aircraft safely to the ground, presumably behind enemy lines.   To do so would be difficult, although some machines were fitted with rudimentary flying controls to enable a crew member in the rear cockpit to effect such a manoeuvre.  I do not know whether or not the DH4 was so equipped.

Lastly, I am not clear about the squadron designation during the time that Lt. Walker was serving with it during 1917.  For instance, would it be a Naval squadron with the prefix No.5?  This suggests that the patrol could have been over the sea, as in the unit account no indication is given in respect of patrol area.  PhilipG.
 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 14, 2016, 07:23:52 PM
Lt Walker.

Philip,
Did you start with the Naval Sqn purposely?  :)

Till the amalgamation of the RNAS and the RFC, 205 Sqn was designated 5 (Naval) Sqn. As you are aware the RNAS Sqns were renumbered on 1st April 1918 by adding 200 to their previous number. I wonder why the RFC Sqns were not renumbered instead, the RN is not usually shy about proclaiming it's status as the senior service.

5 (Naval) Sqn was employed on bombing operations targeting the occupied Belgian ports and also German airfields. The Sqn was attached to 5 Bde RFC in February 1918, the duties it carried out remained the same.

Lts Walker and Mellor are not listed in the ICRC files, there are only enquiry cards which both note negative replies to the enquiries. Lt Walker's RAF casualty card records him as suffering from a GSW to the right thigh which also caused a fracture of the bone. It further states that he was treated by the Germans in their hospitals in Gent and Stettin. He had been admitted to 8 Stationary Hospital Wimereux on 28.12.1918 and repatriated on 13.01.1919 (London) and later transferred to a Hospital in Liverpool.

I have been unable to ascertain if DH4 aircraft were fitted with controls for the Observer. I think we must assume that Lt Mellor lived at least long enough to land the aircraft.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 14, 2016, 07:53:48 PM
One variant that the British flew did have dual controls.
according to 'British Aeroplanes 1914-1918' by J.M. Bruce.
On page 171,
"The observer had full dual control, with duplicated altimeter
and air-speed indicator; his control column was detachable".

The Americans made several variants with dual controls.   

Saying that, there is no proof that they were flying one of these.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 16, 2016, 09:45:55 AM
Charlie,
 Lt.Walker.

This was a difficult piece of research, as the only thing I could really discover was his airborne operation in September 1918 with 205 RAF Squadron.  The possibility that in the period May 1917 to September 1918 he was flying with No. 5 RNAS crossed my mind.  But I'm sure I'm adrift on that one.

Your remarks re the Senior Service's attitude to flying.   I would remind you that their Lordships only "took over" the FAA in 1939.   Aircraft named Skua and Roc come to mind - machines which I saw at Lee on Solent even in '43.

This establishment (an administrative one, too) was a former RAF Station, then encompassing an extensive barracks accommodation for All Hands, including senior and essential RAF NCO's, who continued to serve with the Fleet.  The Wardroom was a place of some style, sometimes graced by the presence of the Flag Officer Naval Air Stations.  The Junior Service in peacetime had lived well. PhilipG.


Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 16, 2016, 09:57:09 AM
Timberman,

Re Lt. Walker.

Thank you for your information that some Observers could have been flying in aircraft fitted with dual controls.  How very sensible, especially when giving flying instruction to pupil flyers.    Sadly, no parachutes, though.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 16, 2016, 07:58:38 PM
Your welcome Philip

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 18, 2016, 10:58:36 AM
         2368 Pte. Frank Jerome Walsh : Manchester Regiment, RFC & RAF

This soldier is reported as serving in Gallipoli and arriving in that theatre of war in May 1915.  At some time later, he was given a new Regimental Number, namely 250463.   Subsequently, he was commissioned in the Manchesters and thereafter transferred to the Royal Flying Corps, flying with No. 10 Squadron in France.

Frustratingly, a record of his service with that squadron is limited to a combat on the 8th October 1918 in which he was wounded.  At that time he was flying a A.W. FK8 type of aircraft, apparently without a gunner.

I have been unable to ascertain in which battalion of the Manchester Regiment he served.  PhilipG.
 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: timberman on April 18, 2016, 06:45:18 PM
Philip

He started with the 1/6th Manchester's
Then he was commissioned into the 5th Manchester's
24/10/1916.

Timberman
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 19, 2016, 07:27:35 AM
Timberman,

Thank you for that additional info. which helps so much to fill in the "blanks" PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 22, 2016, 12:22:51 PM
         2604 L/Cpl Ernest Arthur Worrall : 6th Manchesters & Royal Flying Corps

This soldier, formerly of the 6th Bn. Manchester Regt., took a commission with the Regiment as a 2nd Lt., later transferring to the RFC in which service he reached the rank of Captain.  On the 29th May 1917, he was involved in a night bombing operation in the region of Lille, flying in a FE2b type of aircraft, No. A841 of No. 100 Squadron RFC having left his base at 10.45 pm that day.  During that flight his machine was hit by ground fire and set alight, forcing him to land near Steenwerck suffering from wounds to his arm.

In due course he was posted to No. 51 Squadron, a Home Defence and Training unit.   He was "killed whilst flying" which indicates an accident of some seriousness as the Observer was also killed.

The brief records report that on the 20th March 1918  Worrall and 2nd Lt. A.R.C. Hodges were flying in a FE2b machine of No. 51 Squadron,
No. A5466 operating in the UK.   Worrall is buried in Manchester Southern Cemetery.

Lt. Hodges however, is buried in the church cemetery at Marham, the Squadron's base being nearby.  Interestingly, I notice that Lt. Hodges' parents lived in Cape Town, so it could be that this officer had a connection with South Africa.  In connection with their son's death, his parents  gave to the CWGC the additional information that "he was severely wounded on the Somme in 1916", I should think whilst serving with the Middlesex Regiment.

In the case of Captain Worrall, I note that his sister lived in Cheetham Hill, which would account for his interment in Manchester's Southern Cemetery.    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 22, 2016, 04:46:12 PM
EA Worrall

Philip, according to his RFC casualty card he also served with the 14th Bn and graduated as a Flying Officer on 31.07.1916.

Also on the reverse side of his casualty card is the report of the Court of Enquiry:

Court of Enquiry No 20577/1918 Lt Worrall and 2/Lt Hodges.

The court having carefully considered the evidence before them finds that FE2b Machine No 5466 was wrecked on the 20th March 1918 through spinning into the ground and catching fire. The court are of the opinion that the engine proved unsatisfactory, but there is no evidence to show what were the intentions of the Pilot Lieut. Worrall.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 23, 2016, 12:18:36 PM
Charlie,

      E.A.Worrall

Thank you for the additional information, in particular, the Court of Enquiry Report.  The Court seems to lay blame on the engine being unsatisfactory, but aircraft surely do not spin to the ground purely on engine failure?   There is a routine for such eventualities.

The piece regarding "the intentions of the pilot" makes one believe that he was carrying out some unwise manoeuvre from which the aircraft failed to recover.  There is no mention of "pilot error" and one wonders if, in all the circumstances, it was best to be vague about the cause of death of this experienced airman and his companion?    Any views?              PhilipG. 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on April 23, 2016, 05:07:18 PM
Philip,

I agree with your thoughts regarding an "unwise manoeuvre". Even though accidents can always happen, I find it hard to believe that an experienced pilot with many hours on type would be caught out by an engine failure in "straight and level flight". I imagine engine failures occured quite often in those days. As you correctly note, the court used a lot of words to say nothing conclusive.

There is a short passage in J Sweetmans book Cavalry of the Clouds relating to Lt Worrall's wounding on 29th May.
https://books.google.de/books?id=zFI7AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=ea+worrall&source=bl&ots=fm0Tz42srE&sig=VupPamBBGS87zQcTCU0LgEzy-EE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7746aj6XMAhVGDywKHRt1AqUQ6AEIKjAF#v=onepage&q=ea%20worrall&f=false

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 26, 2016, 09:21:48 AM
Charlie,

E.A. Worrall

I've had a look at the instructions on piloting a FE2b. There's plenty to go wrong, from using the appropriate fuel tanks on "take off" to the security of the gunner's flying jacket whilst in the air.    The mechanic swinging the "prop" had a dangerous job, too.    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: mack on April 26, 2016, 11:42:09 AM
         2368 Pte. Frank Jerome Walsh : Manchester Regiment, RFC & RAF

This soldier is reported as serving in Gallipoli and arriving in that theatre of war in May 1915.  At some time later, he was given a new Regimental Number, namely 250463.   Subsequently, he was commissioned in the Manchesters and thereafter transferred to the Royal Flying Corps, flying with No. 10 Squadron in France.

Frustratingly, a record of his service with that squadron is limited to a combat on the 8th October 1918 in which he was wounded.  At that time he was flying a A.W. FK8 type of aircraft, apparently without a gunner.

I have been unable to ascertain in which battalion of the Manchester Regiment he served.  PhilipG.
 
its a puzzle how he ended up being renumbered,the renumbering took place in 1917 and he had been a commissioned officer for at least 5 months.

mack[smiley]
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 26, 2016, 02:46:05 PM
Mack,

Thank you. Research is full of mysteries.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 30, 2016, 12:31:25 PM
          2nd Lieut.John Stephan Giffard : 20th Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

This officer's military career began with his service with the 20th Manchesters and with its departure overseas in October 1915.  It continued with his transfer in November 1917 to No. 5 Balloon Company of the Royal Flying Corps, with which unit he reached the rank of Captain in June 1918.  He completed a total of 2 years experience of kite-balloon operation and balloon observation procedures, augmented by a course at Roehampton in this connection.

He had a month of serving in the Home Defence Wing before a posting to RAF HQ., Cologne in May 1919, followed by a transfer to the Army of the Rhine.  His visit there was brief and he proceeded to No. 1 BTS in England and ultimately left the RAF in October 1919.

I note from the records that he was awarded the Croix de Guerre and was also Mentioned in Despatches.

It is well known, that after 100 hours of operational flying, Kite-Balloon observers were awarded the highly prized Observers' half-wing brevet.  In this connection I should think that Giffard would have qualified.

During his stay with No. 5 Balloon Coy., I note that there were three casualties amongst the ground crew.  Two of those were killed in action on the 28th October 1918, namely, Pte 2nd Class Walter Shields (age 41 and a native of Lr. Broughton, Manchester) and Sgt. P.Luff, so it was not just the aviators whose lives were at risk in units of this kind.  Both men lie in Mendingham Military Cemetery located near Poperinge.

In civilian life, Captain Giffard was a teacher with a BA degree (Cambridge). He had taught in schools in Hunstanton and in Birkdale, near Southport, followed by an appointment at Kingston Grammar School in Surrey.

In 1924 he emigrated to the USA and became an Assistant Master at Aiken Preparatory School in Aiken, S. Carolina.

PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on April 30, 2016, 05:26:59 PM
I notice there is a spelling mistake in the heading. It should be Stephen.   Sorry. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 13, 2016, 02:53:37 PM
   2nd Lt. Noel William Grieves Wilkinson : 10th Bn. Manchester Regt., RFC & RAF

This officer was a student at Liverpool University before joining the 10th Manchesters in 1914 in which unit he was subsequently commissioned.  Later he was attached to the Lancashire Fusiliers before being transferred to the Royal Flying Corps in 1917.

Interestingly, the records show that in March 1915 he was at Codford (Salisbury Plain), undertaking a course on bombing.  Later, whilst attached to the 1st Wiltshires, he was sent on an Adjutants' Course.  It would seem too, that he became an instructor with the Inns of Court OTC, followed by an appointment to No. 55 Divisional Signalling School.

As regards his transfer to the RFC, he followed what would appear to be the common practice of reporting to No. 1 School of Aeronautics at Reading, followed by transfers to No. 49 Training Depot Squadron and No. 46 Training Squadron.  He left the service in June 1919. 

In respect of his pilot's duties, the records show that he flew "M.F.'s" and DH 6's.    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 27, 2016, 12:58:08 PM
         2nd Lieutenant Thomas Henry Clesham  17th Bn. Manchester Regt.

This officer was a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin.  He had connections with the mining fields in South Africa and served in the Natal Light Horse during the Boer War.   Subsequently, he was commissioned in the Manchester Regiment and "joined the Flying Corps", becoming "a fully qualified aviator."   

His obituary advises that he was killed in action on the 1st July 1916, falling "just as he led his men over the parapet".   His name is on the Thiepval Memorial.

The obituary's reference to " the Flying Corps" suggests that he left the RFC to rejoin the Manchesters.  However, it could be that the words "Flying Corps" describe  those who undertook a pilot's course as a hobby, and that Clesham was never in the RFC.?  Opinions wanted.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on May 27, 2016, 01:27:05 PM
Philip,
I have searched through Flight, Air History UK, the RAF casualty cards, the LG and the MiCs. I cannot find any reference to him in regard to the RFC. I can only sumise, as you have, that any pilot training he undertook was at private expense.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on May 27, 2016, 04:48:00 PM
Thomas Clesham

I don't think he was RFC / RAF, although this suggests he qualified as a Pilot possibly as an attachment.http://ourheroes.southdublinlibraries.ie/node/16826 (http://ourheroes.southdublinlibraries.ie/node/16826)
These are my notes;-
The Thiepval Memorial database suggests evidence that 2nd Lieutenant Clesham “…fell when just as led his men over the parapet and was killed instantly.”  This correlates with Thomas being OC of III Platoon in the Montauban assault as described by Arthur Bell.   â€œThe first casualty I remember was our Platoon officer, we were in artillery formation and he was leading – but I do not think he could have been sniped, unless by some very clever German trickery.  Anyhow, he just go it in the head with one leg off the ground, and must have died that instant.”

The database also says “He was a splendid type of officer and beloved by his comrades. Reported buried in the vicinity of Maricourt” This information would be consistent with a letter to may have been written to Thomas’ family after his death.

He had previously served in South Africa with the Natal Light Horse at the outbreak of hostilities.  His mother Isabella (nee Mckeown) and father, Reverend Timothy Clesham had lived in County Mayo, Ireland.  Rev Clesham has died in 1894.  34 year old Thomas left his Estate to his mother Isabella.  The passenger list for Thomas Clesham’s passage on the Balmoral Castle from Southampton to Cape Town in 1912 identifies him as a dentist.  An earlier voyage from Southampton to Cape Town has also been identified in 1907.  A return journey on the Balmoral Castle on 2nd June 1915 indicates Thomas was an engineer from Transvaal.  The Thiepval Database indicates he Graduated at Trinity College, Dublin and worked in the mining fields of S Africa.  Thomas is included on Portora Great War Memorial in Enniskillen, Portora Royal School, Fermanagh. He is also included on the memorial of the Chemical, Metallurgical and Mining Society of South Africa Great War Memorial.  Thomas had joined the Society in April 1911, employed by Simmer East Limited, as a sampler. 
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on May 27, 2016, 06:11:05 PM
Charlie & Tim Bell,

2nd Lt. T.H. Clesham

Thank you to both of you for the trouble you have taken regarding replying to my contribution re this officer. Much appreciated.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on August 11, 2016, 05:49:06 PM
                         Lt. Leslie O'Gorman Whitfield : 3rd Bn. Manchester Regt., RFC & RAF

This officer was of Australian nationality and was born in 1892.  His military service commenced with his enlistment in the New South Wales Lancers, followed by service with the 3rd Manchesters in England, and in February 1916 by transfer to the RFC, joining at their base in Reading.  From there he undertook training in April 1916 with No. 12 & No. 11 Kite Balloon Squadrons, being classed in June 1916 as a Probation Balloon Officer.   He is recorded as being in hospital in April and in August 1917 where he was holding the rank of Lieutenant.

The records seen, record him being posted to the BEF in October 1918 and where he was granted permission to wear the coveted Observer badge.  He was demobilised in May 1919.

(What few records we have in connection with his military service, in particular for the period 1914/15, I venture to suggest that there is a possibility that Whitfield, with his service with the NSW Lancers, could have served in Gallipoli, as components of the Lancers volunteered to join the 1st Australian Light Horse Brigade which landed on the Peninsular on the 12th May 1915.  I could go further by way of conjecture, and suggest that his periods in hospital could have been connected with such service during the campaign. At present, of course, there is no proof in any respect of what I am suggesting).
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on August 11, 2016, 09:30:10 PM
Lt Whitfield

Philip
This Officer has quite a long list of stays in hospital:
15.4.1917 7 Stationary Hospital Boulogne diagnosed as suffering from VDG, discharged to 39GH Havre.
7.8.1917 Hazebrook, atrophy muscle left thigh.
8.8.1817 20GH as above and synovitis left knee
10.08.1917 discharged to duty - base details Etaples
28.8.1917 20GH atrophy left leg
3.1.1919 RAF Hosp 37 Appendicitis
8.2.1919 8.2.1919 Central Hospital Hampstead - NYD

The last two entries being in red ink on his casualty card.

Some more information and two good photos of him as an Officer in the Manchesters

http://beyond1914.sydney.edu.au/profile/4327/donald-leslie-o-gorman-whitfeld

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on September 01, 2016, 07:45:30 PM
Charlie,

A belated thank you. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 27, 2016, 07:49:41 AM
                           Lieutenant E.M.Besso  :  1/5th Manchester Regt., RFC & RAF

This officer's name is one of some 60 listed on the Manchester Congregations Spanish and Portuguese Jews Roll of Honour for the Great War.   It is understood that getting on for one fifth of enlistments from the community, which would appear to have centred on synagogues in the areas of Cheetham Hill Road and Mauldeth Road, Manchester, served in the Manchester Regiment, including of course, 2nd Lt. Joshua H. Cansino of the 22nd Manchesters who was kia on 2nd June 1916.

I have been unable to trace Lieutenant Besso's service with either the Royal Flying Corps or the Royal Air Force and therefore do not know in which capacity he served in these units.

PhilipG.
The Jewry Roll of Honour says Lt A Besso was 1st Bttn MR attached to the Camel Corps. Here's a photo.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 27, 2016, 10:27:48 AM
Tim Bell,
 Thank you for your interest in this thread concerning Lt. E.M.Besso of the 5th Manchesters and also for the photograph.

However, I note that the photograph is annotated "A.Besso" which suggests that the likeness is not that of Lt. E.M. Besso, but that of 2nd Lt. A.Besso of, as you say, the 1st battalion, possibly  a relative?  What do you think?  Regards, PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 27, 2016, 12:20:02 PM
Quite right Philip,
I hadn't cross checked the initial! Checking the roll confirms the only Manchester Regiment man listed as Besso is Lt. A Besso.  It appears E. Maurice Besso was missing from the Roll or accounted for in the RAF roll - which I can't now check.  There are quite a few inconsistencies...
Maurice Besso and Abram Besso are shown on the 1911 Census as resident 369 Bury New Road, Broughton. Maurice was an Apprentice at Electrical Engineers.
An Eric Maurice Besso returned from New York on the Queen Mary in June 1939 and may have been the same man shown as 2/Lt on the Army Lists in the E Lancs and Territorial Reserve.
Tim
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 09, 2017, 08:34:50 AM
              3121 Pte James Taylor :  Manchester Regt. & RFC

This soldier served with a battalion of the Manchesters in Gallipoli.  Subsequently, he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps taking  the service number of 334630.   I note that at a later date he re-joined the Manchesters, this time taking the Regimental Number 376024.

I have not been able to ascertain in which battalions he served or, indeed, his rank when serving in the RFC.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on March 09, 2017, 09:41:42 AM
Philip,
According to the medal rolls he served with the 1/10th Bn, I presume 3121 & 376024 are his short and long numbers. He qualified for his 1914-15 Star on 23.10.1915. The Bn received a draft of re-enforcements from the 3/10th Bn in October 1915. The medal went unclaimed but was re-issued in April 1931. I have drawn a complete blank with his RFC service, all I can add is that he is not on the RAF Muster Roll so it would appear he had returned to the Manchesters by then. The only Rank he seems to have had with the RFC is that of Pte, which suggests that he was in a non-technical trade.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 09, 2017, 12:55:30 PM
Charlie,

Many thanks. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on March 10, 2017, 07:41:33 AM
Philip,
After a bit more digging the evidence points to him being a post war re-enlistment. There are no Airmen with a 334??? Series service number in the RAF Muster Roll, only 44 with a WW1 medal entitlement, all have service in another regiment. The 344??? Series was used for civilians enlisting into the RAF in August 1919.

All the 44 are recorded in the NA MiCs as RFC but the Medal Rolls are all RAF. Perhaps someone with access to "Find my Past" could have a look for his RAF service record.

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on March 10, 2017, 03:35:13 PM
Charlie,

Thank you for your interest.  As often happens in research, this man's name came up when I was looking for a lead into something quite different.  However, it was yet another name to add to the list of those who felt the call to join the Junior Service, as Mack said some years ago, "it is quite a list".    PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on July 10, 2017, 09:22:57 AM
2/Lt Harold Edgar Hinchliffe 2/8th Bn and RAF.

This Officer was on 103 Sqn and was taken PoW on 09.07.1918 at Laventie. He was flying in DH9 D1023 as an Observer. His Casualty Card records "Last seen this side of line flying north on dawn patrol" He was repatriated on 11.01.1919 after being held at Karlsruhe and Stralsund-Dänholm.

Charlie

Surname now corrected
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on July 10, 2017, 06:14:49 PM

Charlie,

I have the above named officer recorded as Hinchliffe.    His pilot was 2nd Lt. R.H.Dunn who was also a POW. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: charlie on July 10, 2017, 07:35:40 PM
Philip,
Thank you, your records are better than my eyesight :)

Charlie
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 05, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
2/Lt G F  Ward  Commissioned 25th September 1914 with other City Battalion Officers noted in LG 30/10/1914.  23rd Bttn in Book of Honour. Transferred from Manchester Regiment to ACC 14/9/1915. Attached to RFC by 17/6/1916
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: PhilipG on October 06, 2017, 09:50:56 AM
Tim Bell,

                                  2nd Lt G.F.Ward

Tim, some further information about this officer can be found on Page 14, Reply No. 197 d/d 27.7.2015.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on October 06, 2017, 10:46:12 AM
Excellent
Lt Ward was struck off ACC strength on 3/8/1916 - presumably the date he was posted to RFC.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: chadders on November 25, 2017, 06:23:13 PM
Thankfully I've found this post.

I'm currently in the process of having Manchester Grammar School Roll of Honour transcribed. I first spotted this officer's name in the December 1914 school magazine, as having joined the 7th Manchesters as second lieutenant.

He is no relationship to me, but I kept seeing his name cropping up in subsequent issues of the magazine, as he was promoted, awarded the MC and transferred to the RFC. He is last mentioned in the magazine in 1918 as posted missing. I've been eager to find out if he actually survived the war, thankfully now I know!
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on November 25, 2017, 11:01:50 PM
Hi Jim,
You may find this other thread useful http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=8118.0 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=8118.0)
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on December 30, 2017, 04:31:20 PM
Bernard Yandell received 1914/15 Star as 2/Lt with MEF 9/1915.  Later BWM/VM with RFC.
Pembroke College, Oxford:-
"1913 Yandell, B., M.A. (Oct. 5, 1914). JLt. i4th Manchester Regt., afterwards

Lt. R.A.F. Gallipoli, 1915 ; Belgium, France, 1917. "
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on January 28, 2018, 07:58:48 AM
2nd Lt Alfred Coldrick Carter

Born London 6/1/1896. Enlisted 16th Bttn London Regiment. Pte 2451. France 24/1/1915-31/7/1915. Comm Manchesters 16/11/1915. Rejoined 17th Bttn from Base 27/2/1917. Date of original joining isn't seen and may be 7th November (RAF card date) or July 1916.  Transferred to Indian Officers Reserve Army on MIC and RAF 22/9/1918. 1 S of A.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Tim Bell on February 04, 2018, 05:56:26 PM
2/Lt William Spencer

(b 1/4/1894) Solicitors Clerk in 1911. 3rd Bttn att 17th Taken on strength 23/8/1917.   Transferred to RFC 4/1/1918. 82 Sqn. Admitted to Hosp twice. 143 Fildes Street, Grimsby.  Demob 16/4/1919. Home & birth address East Cowton, Northallerton, Yorks.
Title: Re: Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF
Post by: Timberman on October 12, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Arthur Buckley

Arthur Buckley was born in Ashton-under-Lyne on 14th November 1893, the son of Joseph William Buckley, a commercial traveller. He attended Albion School in Ashton before coming to Oldham Hulme Grammar School in September 1905. He remained at school for six years before studying at Manchester University for a Bachelor of Commerce degree.Whilst at university he joined the Officer Training Corps and received a commission with the 14th Battalion of the Manchester Regiment. He served as 2nd lieutenant in Salonika from 22nd November 1915. In July 1918 he transferred to the Royal Air Force and trained as an observer. He was deployed to France a day before the war ended.He died in 1948 aged 56.

Timberman