The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: timberman on January 06, 2014, 07:24:02 PM

Title: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: timberman on January 06, 2014, 07:24:02 PM



I have been researching ' Teachers in the Pals' using the  Roll of Honour' .  If anyone has  any names of other teachers who enlisted in the Great War from any of the Manchester Regiment  that would be great.

Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: timberman on January 06, 2014, 07:28:47 PM
Hi Wendy,

Sgt Frank Chandler Pln Sgt of III Pln of 17th Bttn is one example. http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7076.0
Louis Brownjohn in his Platoon is another.
The Merchiston & St Bees Officers in 16th & 17th are another.

I think you need a different thread and look forward to helping.  I haven't seen the role of honour and a copy would be useful.

Tim
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on January 06, 2014, 07:29:43 PM
hiya wendy.
which roll of honour are you using

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Tim Bell on January 06, 2014, 07:40:05 PM
Hi Wendy,

Please have a look through this previous thread where people helped me out.
http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7005.0 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7005.0)
Primary school teacher Lewis Charles Brownjohn 9045 lost his life at Guillemont on 30/7/16, aged 26.  The pupils of St. Lukes School in Longsight (I think) will have mourned his loss, along with his parents, John and Annie Brownjohn.  Born in St. Giles, Oxford,  Lewis had been living at 2 Lansdowne Road, Crumpsall in 1911.  Identified as a Lance Corporal on the Heaton Park Roll, Lewis had been promoted to Sergeant by 30th July.  He has no known grave and is commemorated at Thiepval.

You have no shortage of leads.  Have fun.

Tim
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Bobpike on January 06, 2014, 07:52:51 PM
Wendy,
Are these of interest?
Bob

STRINGER-Second Lieutenant-ALBERT EDWARD--9th Bn.-Manchester Regiment----07/06/1915-37-Son of Edward and Ann Stringer, of 6, Trafalgar Square, Ashton-under-Lyne. B.Sc., Victoria University, Manchester. Deputy Headmaster, Municipal Secondary School, Ashton-under-Lyne---HELLES MEMORIAL-Panel 158 to 170
ALLEN-Private-ROBERT HOUNSOME-10589-"C" Coy. 18th Bn.-Manchester Regiment----02/07/1916-26-Son of Fred S. P. and Mary Allen, of 76, Ashley Lane, Moston, Manchester. A schoolmaster, trained at Chester College. Native of Blackley, Manchester---DIVE COPSE BRITISH CEMETERY, SAILLY-LE-SEC-II. C. 25
CRICHTON-Second Lieutenant-HERBERT CLOWE--18th Bn.-Manchester Regiment----07/10/1916-33-Son of George Crichton, M.D. and Agnes Sophia Crichton, of "Dalkeith," Mickleburgh Hill, Herne Bay, Kent. Educated at Epsom College. Master at Bishop Cotton School, Bangalore, South India. Born at Twickenham, Middlesex---DARTMOOR CEMETERY, BECORDEL-BECOURT-II. B. 6
THODY-Captain-CLARENCE JAMES--8th Bn.-Manchester Regiment----30/08/1918-33-Son of W. A. Thody, of Dunstable, Beds. Master of Ardwick Green Industrial School (Manchester)---MANCHESTER CEMETERY, RIENCOURT-LES-BAPAUME-A. 11
HEAL-Private-ELI JAMES-252327-"C" Coy. 2nd/6th Bn.-Manchester Regiment----21/03/1918-32-Son of Andrew and Ellen Heald, of 14, Colliery St., Chorley; husband of Mabel Alice Heald, of 74A, Weldbank Lane, Chorley, Lancs. Assistant Master at Ducie Avenue School, Manchester---POZIERES MEMORIAL-Panel 64 to 67
LEWIS-Second Lieutenant-CHARLES--6th Bn. attd. 16th Bn.-Manchester Regiment----21/03/1918-26-Son of Frederick and Elizabeth Lewis, of East St., Chittlehampton, Devon. Graduated at St. Catherine's, Oxford; B.A.; Assistant Master of Wem Grammar School, Salop. Volunteered for service Aug., 1914. Also served at Salonika---POZIERES MEMORIAL-Panel 64 to 67

Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on January 06, 2014, 08:34:12 PM
Mack
I have access to the Employers Roll of Honour  from the original book and CD rom plus NUT list from paiyfor site.
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Devil Wood on January 06, 2014, 08:45:21 PM
Wendy, I had a teacher called MR. Lloyd teacher Chemistry and Physics at Mill St School of Building Mill  St Ancoats 1945. He had a damaged arm and the understanding was he was wounded in France.
Love to know if he was in the Manchesters. Could have been a sniper, he was a great shot with a blackboard duster.
Happy New year everyone. Barney
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on January 06, 2014, 10:25:44 PM
dont forget captain forshaw VC,he was a teacher in salford i believe

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Robert Bonner on January 07, 2014, 10:17:51 AM
Wendy.
Lieut Fred Jones 9th Bn.  Assistant Master at an Ashton-under-Lyne Council School.   A pre-war Territorial promoted Sergeant shortly before mobilisation. Commissioned 2nd-Lieutenant 30 September 1914.  KIA 24 June 1915. Buried Redoubt Cemetery, Gallipoli.

William Thomas Forshaw VC.9th Bn In January 1912 began his career as a schoolmaster at the Dallas Road Council School & Sulyard Street Council School, Lancaster.  Then in September 1913 as an assistant master at North Manchester School in Higher Broughton, one of the three preparatory schools for Manchester Grammar School.  (MGS rightly claim him as one of theirs) Commissioned March 1914.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: timberman on January 07, 2014, 04:22:42 PM
Hi Wendy

Not a pal but!!

Wilfred Edward Salter Owen was born 18 March 1893
in Oswestry, Shropshire. After school he became a
teaching assistant and in 1913 went to France for
two years to work as a language tutor.

Timberman
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Bobpike on January 07, 2014, 05:44:30 PM
I wondered if my post was of interest or irrelevant as no response was forthcoming?
Bob
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on January 07, 2014, 09:26:37 PM
this is some info on Lt fred jones that robert posted

cpl 243 thomas valentine a 26yrs veteran of the 9th manchesters stated that he was stood behind Lt jones in shrapnel gully,he was at the top of the gully talking to two other officers when he suddenly fell,one of the officers asked,have you fell over jones,but when he looked he realised he was dead,he was dead before he hit the floor.we carried him away on a stretcher and buried him in the gully.

he had matriculations from manchester and london,and was shortly going to do his final exams,he was a assistant master at birley st school beswick before becoming a assistant master at west end council school,he was also a sunday school teacher at st.andrews droylsden.

resided 5 moorside ave,droylsden,he was the only means of support for his mother

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on January 07, 2014, 11:15:39 PM
Wendy.
Lieut Fred Jones 9th Bn.  Assistant Master at an Ashton-under-Lyne Council School.   A pre-war Territorial promoted Sergeant shortly before mobilisation. Commissioned 2nd-Lieutenant 30 September 1914.  KIA 24 June 1915. Buried Redoubt Cemetery, Gallipoli.

William Thomas Forshaw VC.9th Bn In January 1912 began his career as a schoolmaster at the Dallas Road Council School & Sulyard Street Council School, Lancaster.  Then in September 1913 as an assistant master at North Manchester School in Higher Broughton, one of the three preparatory schools for Manchester Grammar School.  (MGS rightly claim him as one of theirs) Commissioned March 1914.
capt george makin also of the 1/9th manchesters,was also a teacher at this school,it was his friendship with capt forshaw that persuaded capt forshaw to join the battalion which he did so on 14th november 1914,he was 24yrs old at the time

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on January 08, 2014, 08:32:57 AM
Apologies for the  delay in replying to your responses which were so quick and  detailed and I am looking forward to getting started.  Thanks again.
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on January 12, 2014, 03:07:21 PM
wendy.
google this
bolton church institute school war memorial.

theres details and a photo of 2/Lt harry taylor of the 18th manchesters

KINGO.
hes one of your lads andy.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on January 12, 2014, 08:14:31 PM
Thanks Mack - what an interesting site!  I have some soldiers who were corporals and sergeants in the 18th, but not officers.  Thanks for this
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on January 12, 2014, 08:48:47 PM
your very welcome.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Robert Bonner on February 24, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
Scott, William James De Vere. 8th Manchesters
27th May 1890 – 29th May 1915. Son of James Scott of The Down, Trowbridge.  Educated Trowbridge High School, Bristol University and London University.
At the outbreak of war he was the Assistant History Master at the Elhamiah Secondary School, Cairo. Commissioned February 1915.

Killed in action. No known grave.  Commemorated on the Helles Memorial, Gallipoli.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on February 24, 2014, 04:10:07 PM
Thanks Robert 
I am particularly interested in this man for being the first  I have come across of a Wiltshire man in the Manchesters. Inwill do some research as to his appointment in Cairo
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Robert Bonner on February 25, 2014, 10:07:52 AM
Wendy.
It will be most interesting if you can discover some more.
Robert
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on February 25, 2014, 12:43:00 PM
hiya Robert
there was a informative write up about him in bond of sacrifice,i don't have these publications but some of the gang on the GWF do,his three brothers all served and all three were also teachers,i do know he was captain of the trowbridge school cricket+football teams and rowed for London university,son of james+julia scott
one of his ancestors fought at waterloo

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on February 26, 2014, 05:52:35 PM
Thanks for  that info Mack.  I will develop this further.  I just wonder why a  man in Wiltshire would be commissioned in the Manchester Regiment. 
most intriguing!
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on February 26, 2014, 06:21:49 PM
Thanks for  that info Mack.  I will develop this further.  I just wonder why a  man in Wiltshire would be commissioned in the Manchester Regiment. 
most intriguing!
Wendyg

that's easily explained wendy,they wanted to join the best regt in the british army ;)

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on February 27, 2014, 01:36:09 PM
Nice one Mack! Agreed. 
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: rendle1950 on March 21, 2014, 03:11:18 PM
A bit late but Lt George Swaine (19th Battalion) was a teacher at the Manchester Warehouseman and Orphans' School in Cheadle
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on March 21, 2014, 04:19:25 PM
Thanks for  this. It's not too late at all and I have already looked him up on the census. 
 I know Cheadle Hulme well
wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on March 21, 2014, 06:21:01 PM
hiya wendy
google George Raymond swaine,theres quite a bit about him,and a couple of pictures.

mack ;D
ps and his service record on ancestry
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Pete Th on March 21, 2014, 07:32:24 PM
wendy.
google this
bolton church institute school war memorial.

theres details and a photo of 2/Lt harry taylor of the 18th manchesters

KINGO.
hes one of your lads andy.

mack ;D

Mack, he's also one of mine. Harry was born in Bolton but taught in Cadishead. He was a very popular teacher and is named on the Irlam and Cadishead War Memorial. There is a great photo of him in A District at War.

Another teacher was 2nd Lt Leonard Harvey Nicholls, 21st Manchesters (also in District at War).

I'm about to go out but will post info on both men tomorrow morning.

Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Pete Th on March 22, 2014, 07:14:53 AM
From A District at War:

Leonard Harvey Nicholls – Killed in action 26th October 1917
Second Lieutenant Leonard Harvey Nicholls served with the 21st (Service) Battalion (6th City), The Manchester Regiment, 91st Infantry Brigade, 7th Division.

Leonard was born on 20th August 1887 in Manchester. He was the son of Thomas William and Elizabeth Lydia Nicholls of 127 Whit Lane, Pendleton. His father was a pharmaceutical chemist. Leonard was educated at Salford Secondary School for Boys and Birmingham University. Before the war he resided with his parents and was employed as a schoolmaster, holding the post of temporary headmaster of St John’s School, Irlam-o’th-heights, Salford.

On 6th November 1915, Leonard enlisted at Manchester into a Public School Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. His description was recorded as 28 years 3 months, 5 foot 7½ inches tall, with a fresh complexion, grey eyes and fair hair. Two days after enlisting he joined the battalion at Epsom. On 10th December he was appointed Lance Corporal (unpaid), appointed Lance Corporal (paid) on 19th February 1916 and appointed Acting Corporal on 18th March. On 5th July he was confirmed to the rank of Corporal and appointed to the rank of Lance Sergeant. On 31st July he married Judith Garner, daughter of Joseph Garner of 595 Liverpool Road, Irlam. Her grandfather was a former headmaster at Irlam Endowed School.

On 31st August he was transferred to ‘C’ Company of the 105th Training Reserve Battalion (which was formerly the 29th Reserve Battalion, Royal Fusiliers). The 105th were stationed at Bruntsfield School in Edinburgh. On 18th September he was appointed Acting Sergeant. He submitted an application for a temporary commission on 16th October. On 1st December, his application having been accepted, he was posted to No. 2 Officer Cadet Battalion at Pembroke College, Cambridge. On 22nd June 1917 he embarked from Folkestone, arriving at Boulogne the same day. The next day he arrived at 30 Infantry Base Depot at Etaples and on 30th June he was posted to the 21st Manchesters in the field.

On 24th October 1917 the battalion moved to La Clytte and then later in the day to ‘Lock 8’ in preparation for an attack on Gheluvelt during the Second Battle of Passchendaele. On the night of 25th/26th October very heavy rain fell, especially during forming up, which made the ground extremely muddy and made movement very difficult. At zero hour, 5.40am, the barrage opened and the 21st Manchesters moved forward to get as close to the barrage as possible. The advance continued with accuracy and precision for some time but later ‘A’ Company on the left came under very heavy enfilading machine-gun fire from ‘Lewis House’ and the company was practically decimated. Around the same time, ‘B’ Company on the right, came under heavy machine-gun fire from ‘Berry Cotts’. Survivors of these two companies dug in as well as they could. It is believed that the survivors of ‘A’ and ‘B’ Companies later continued the advance, although they had lost touch with the creeping barrage. The official history of the 21st Manchesters states that ‘nothing is known of their fate and no trace could be found of them, although they were reported to have gone on.’ It has since been established that some men of ‘A’ Company reached their objective but, owing to their inability to use their rifles on account of mud, they were captured.

‘C’ Company moved off at zero hour, passing over Power Trench where elements of ‘D’ Company were found ‘mopping up.’ The advance continued until they came under severe machine-gun fire from ‘Lewis House’ which was so devastating that they were reduced to only four men.

Subsequently all available men from the 21st Manchesters, 2nd Queens, 1st South Staffs, 2nd Gordons and 2nd Borders were organised and established back in the trenches that had been their starting position in the morning. The 21st Manchesters were relieved by the 20th Manchesters at 2.15am the next day.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote the following about this attack in his ‘1917 Campaign’: ‘The 7th Division meanwhile had advanced upon Gheluvelt, the 2nd West Surreys, 1st South Staffs and Manchesters of 91 Brigade, advancing to the south of Menin Road in order to guard the flank of their comrades who followed the line of the road which would lead them to this famous village. The flanking Brigade was held up, however, at the old stumbling-block under ‘Lewis House’ and ‘Berry Cotts,’ where the German fire was deadly. This failure enabled the enemy to bring a very heavy cross fire upon the 2nd Borders and 2nd Gordons of 20 Brigade, forming the column of attack. In spite of this fire, the stormers forced their way into Gheluvelt, but found themselves involved in very heavy fighting, while their guns were choked with mud and useless, save as pikes or clubs. Under these circumstances they were forced back to their own line.’

As a result of the attack on Friday, 26th October 1917, the 21st Manchesters lost six officers including Leonard Harvey Nicholls killed in action and 27 other ranks killed, 173 wounded and 93 missing. Leonard was 30 years old. He is commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial, Belgium and is also listed on the Birmingham University War Memorial, Old Salfordians Memorial (now located at the Peel Building in the University of Salford) and Salford Corporation Memorial (Education Department panel) sited in Salford Town Hall.

The Commanding Officer of the battalion wrote to Leonard’s wife stating her husband had been killed leading his platoon into action. He added ‘Your husband was an exceedingly keen and promising officer, and for some time had been looking after the games of the battalion in his spare time. He is very deeply missed by all.’ Medal Entitlement: Pair.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Pete Th on March 22, 2014, 07:25:32 AM
From A District at War:

Harry Taylor – Killed in action 12th October 1916
Second Lieutenant Harry Taylor served with the 18th (Service) Battalion (3rd City), The Manchester Regiment, 90th Brigade, 30th Division.

He was born in Bolton on 1st July 1889, the son of Henry and Anne Taylor of 13 Roseberry Street, Bolton. His father worked as a contractor and decorator. Harry had four older sisters who were all employed as cotton weavers: Ethelinda (born c. 1878), Mary (c. 1881), Florence (c. 1883) and Annie (c. 1885), as well as two younger siblings; Stanley (c. 1892) and Olive (c. 1894). Harry resided with his parents up to joining the Army and also lodged with Peter Ashton of Beechfield, Fir Street, Cadishead.

He was educated at Westminster Training College, London. He was employed as the assistant schoolmaster at the Cadishead Council School for over 10 years and also taught two evening classes per week. He enlisted on 13th February 1915 at Manchester into the 19th (Service) Battalion (2nd Public Schools) of the Royal Fusiliers as Private 6350. His service record states that he enlisted at the age of 25 years 7 months and described him as 5 feet 8¾ inches tall.

On 7th May 1915 he married Mary Elizabeth Horrocks (born 18th July 1890) at Bethel Chapel, Park Road, Westhoughton, Bolton. They went on to reside at 46 Bolton Road, Westhoughton.

Harry served a total of 274 days in England, between 13th February and 13th November 1915. On 14th November, he sailed with his battalion to France. The 19th Royal Fusiliers were part of 98th Brigade, 33rd Division. He served on the Western Front with this unit until 22nd March 1916 (a total of 129 days). On 23rd March 1916 he arrived back in England and the next day was posted to No. 1 Officer Training Battalion at Denham. On 5th April 1916 Harry and Mary’s only child was born in Bolton. He was named Harry Horrocks Denham Taylor (note the significance of the middle name).

On 6th July 1916 Harry was discharged from the Royal Fusiliers, with whom he had served 1 year and 145 days, and was granted a commission as second lieutenant with the 26th (Reserve) Battalion of the Manchester Regiment. In August 1916 he returned to France and was posted to the 18th Manchesters.

On 12th October the 18th Manchesters, in company with the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers and the 89th Brigade, attacked an enemy strongpoint south of the village of Ligny Thilloy (located on hills to the west of Bapaume). The enemy facing the attacking British were German Marines. At zero hour (2pm), after an ineffective barrage, the 350 Manchesters went over the top, leaving their trenches to cover the 300 yards to the German frontline. The Germans swept the British with heavy machine-gun fire and this, together with a fierce enemy counter-barrage, cost the Manchesters dearly with 250 men being killed, wounded or missing. Second Lieutenant Harry Taylor was one of those killed in action during this attack. He was 26 years old.

Mr R.B. Toft, chairman of the Education Committee at the time of Harry Taylor’s appointment to the school, and an old friend, said that he was ‘a most successful teacher and was respected, almost loved, by the scholars under his care.’ Mr Toft stated that Harry had been sent to the old Wesleyan School in response to a request which was forwarded to Dr Rigg that he should send the best student from the college. Harry served under the late Mr E. Burgess and later on under the headmaster, Mr R. Sowerbutts, who added that Harry was a conscientious and painstaking teacher.

Harry’s death came as a great shock to his young wife and his many friends in Cadishead, where he was held in great respect by present and old scholars and staff at Cadishead Council School. He was well known throughout the district and a great favourite of the children. During the war his visits to the school and also letters from the front were always great events for the boys in particular. A commemorative ceremony was held at the school and a number of old scholars attended. Each was presented with a photograph of Harry and a photograph was placed in the school as a memorial. Harry is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, Somme, France. Medal Entitlement: 15 Star Trio.
Title: Lt Aubrey Harris 21st Battalion
Post by: Tim Bell on March 23, 2014, 07:10:05 AM
Hi Wendy,
This recently refreshed post http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=2675.15 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=2675.15)shows some details I hadn't noted about one of the Merchiston teachers.  Please see JWRH's post #25

HARRIS, Lieutenant, AUBREY, "A" Coy. 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 4
September 1916. Age 22. Son of William and Mary Elizabeth Harris, of Oak Bank Villa,
72, Alexandra Rd., Wrexham. B.A. (Hons.) Manchester University. Senior language
master (Merchiston, Edinburgh). Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C.

Mack's post tells us Lt Harris was Bombing Officer.  A pic can be found with III Platoon http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=4694.0 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=4694.0)

Tim


Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Tim Bell on August 30, 2014, 10:49:14 AM
Wendy,
Please see link pg 212 concerning the visit of Lieut. W. T. Forshaw, V.C.to North Manchester School where he had been a teacher.  This was a prep. School for Manchester Grammar, explains the extensive article in MGS magazine. http://www.worldwar1schoolarchives.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ULULA_1915_11.pdf (http://www.worldwar1schoolarchives.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ULULA_1915_11.pdf)

"Victoria Station approach was lined with the Boy Scouts and O.T.C., while behind them, rank after rank, stood
the boys of the School and detachments from the Prepara- tory Schools"
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on August 31, 2014, 11:57:46 AM
Thanks Tim. I shall add him to my list. What an interesting resource! I have looked at others online and your link gave me inspiration as I have a friend whose father went toMGS and she has no idea about his war service except for a photo in army uniform taken from the back so no insignia!

Thanks again
Wendyg
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Mark Hone on September 01, 2014, 04:37:08 PM
Have you got Lt Albert Hendrie, teacher and OTC officer at Bury Grammar School on your database? I have his service record and POW repatriation interview. He became Brigade Trench Mortar battery commander and was captured near Manchester Hill on 21st March 1918. He did not return as a teacher to BGS after the war.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Robert Bonner on September 01, 2014, 04:49:36 PM
Lieut Hendrie.
Wilfrith Elstob of the 16th Bn in a report to his Brigadier concerning the attack on 31 July 1917  wrote: Then went forward to try and discover where our front line actually had got to - on the way met Captain Hendrie of Stokes Mortar Battery and explained my intention of organising an attack up the valley, arranging for him to bring fire to bear on the left to occupy the enemy as soon as he saw party approaching up the valley. Capt Hendrie then went to reconnoitre the position for his guns.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on November 29, 2014, 11:52:26 AM
                                   2nd Lieutenant Andrew Morris

This officer was formerly a teacher at Elmfield College in York and was KIA on the 26th August 1918 whilst serving with the 12th Manchesters.   I note that the CWGC have him listed as "4th Bn. attd. 12th (Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry) Bn."   I presume this is a reference to the time in September 1917 when 7 officers and 125 OR's were transferred from the Yeomanry to this Service battalion of the Manchesters.   I again presume that the Yeomanry Regiment was then disbanded?

On the 25th August the battalion was involved in an attack on the Thiepval Ridge, an undertaking which achieved "all that could be desired".    However, the unit on the battalion's right withdrew from High Wood with the inevitable exposure on the Manchesters' flank, resulting in the battalion suffering heavy casualties.

The following day, at 5 a.m., the attack resumed and met with success.  However, casualties continued to be suffered by the battalion and among these was Lieutenant Morris.   He is buried in Pozieres British Cemetery.         PhilipG.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Robert Bonner on November 29, 2014, 12:31:26 PM
On 24 September 1917 the 12th Manchesters absorbed the RHQ & 2 Squadrons DOLY (7 officers & 125 other ranks) now dismounted after serving as the cavalry regiment of 3 Corps. 
The Battalion was retitled 12th (Duke Of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry) Battalion Manchester Regiment.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on November 29, 2014, 01:18:19 PM
Robert,

Thank you for that info. Regards, Philip.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on November 29, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
                No. 2295 Private John Fletcher Redhead:  l/6th Manchester Regiment

This soldier was a pupil of Elmfield College, York and in 1905 was a Scholarship Winner, being awarded the "Hugh Bourne Scholarship" donated by the Primitive Methodist Conference.   After leaving school, he qualified as a teacher and has been traced to the staff of a school in Cardiff.

He was killed in action on the 5th June 1915 in Gallipoli during the Third Battle of Krithia, a battle in which the Official History of the War - Gallipoli - Vol.II, informs us that the "Manchester Territorials", (Brig.Gen. Noel Lee) fought like veterans and that all were in fine fettle.  Private Redhead has no known grave and thus his name is inscribed on the panels of the Helles Memorial.

In the period 4th June to 9th June 1915, the l/6th Manchesters suffered a total of 384 casualties, including Other Rank casualties totalling 61 killed.   It was on the 4th June that General Lee was wounded in the head by enemy fire, evacuated from the Peninsula, but sadly died later in Malta on the 22nd June 1915.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on December 01, 2014, 02:31:54 PM
        Second Lieutenant Gilbert Carmichael : 10th Bn. attd. 2/6th Manchester Regiment.

This officer was formerly a teacher at Ashville College in Harrogate, but was killed in action on the morning of the 21st March 1918 during the Battle of St. Quentin (21st March to 23rd March 1918).  He was 34 years old.  His name is engraved on the Pozieres Memorial.

The 2/6th Manchesters at that time were part of the 5th Army serving with the 66th (2nd E. Lancs) Division in the 199th Brigade, alongside their comrades in the 2/5th and 2/7th battalions.   The 2/6th battalion was in position in the Villeret area, this location lying due east of the town of Roisel on the D57 and north of St.Quentin.   The Official History gives a number of mentions of the fighting retreat of the 2/6th battalion which began with the German advance breaking through the Forward Zone in the morning of the 21st March.    Those of the 2/6th Manchesters forming a "garrison" in Villeret were soon under attack by enemy troops, whose leading lines pushed on to engage the British in the Battle Zone.

Opposite Villeret a company of the 2/6th Manchesters was engaged in severe fighting around Fervaque Farm, but had to retreat when in early afternoon it came under "liquid fire", the Germans entering the farm finding just 8 men fit for duty.   The fighting retreat continued with similar stands being undertaken against the advancing Germans, for example at Carpeza Copse, with heavy losses being incurred.  In April 1918 the battalion was reduced to a training cadre and in the following July disbanded in France.
PhilipG.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Gerryh on November 27, 2015, 01:04:12 PM
Wendy 
I have always believed that teachers and "intellectuals" as a whole were cautious about joining the earlier Pals battalions because they were susceptible to anti-war protests and pressure from the Suffragette movement.  As a result, in the 22nd and almost the last, Charlie May's battalion, there were a number of teachers who joined up.  It seems to be a trend in other regiments...
Here are some names:  Capt. Albert Edward Bland, Lieut. Joshua Hain Cansino, Capt. Charles Mostyn Lloyd, Capt. Frank Earles, Lieut. George Ryall, Sgt. Richard Henry Tawney, Lieut. Marcus Loftus Woodhouse...
Tawney of course is fascinating.  He was a founder of the Workers' Education Association and a Don at Oxford.  After the war he was Professor of Economic History at the London School of Economics and was economic adviser to Ramsay MacDonald's Labour Government in 1924.  (MacDonald was one of the many on the left who opposed the war).
Many people, including Charlie, tried to persuade Tawney to accept a commission.  He always refused, and one reason was because he was a socialist.
Gerry

 
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on November 27, 2015, 03:59:51 PM
Thanks for this. I will investigate further

Wendy
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Gerryh on April 02, 2016, 07:20:45 PM
Do you not think, as I do, that the later 'Pals' battalions probably enlisted more white collar workers, which included teachers, than the earlier ones?  If this is true, is it perhaps because the more middle-class 'Pals' were less susceptible to a knee-jerk response to Kitchener's call?

There was an active, and growing resistance to war, "conchies" were on the increase, and many women were becoming radicalised (a much abused word these days) by the Suffrage movement. 

I think those who joined later could have been influenced by this, and they also probably had salaried jobs, as teachers did, rather than weekly or daily paid jobs which were less permanent.

I'd be interested in what people have to say.

Gerryh
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Gerryh on April 02, 2016, 07:23:27 PM
Forgive me, I have just noticed that I  had previously sent a post which said much the same thing!  gerryh
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on April 03, 2016, 11:46:28 AM
Gerryh,

I have always believed that the "Call to Arms" in 1914 prompted men of all classes, professions and trades to immediately respond to that call, a belief reinforced by an examination of the Manchester City Battalions Book of Honour.  I cite just one name as an example - W.M.Johnson - Chairman & Managing Director of R.Johnson,Clapham & Morris Ltd., Manchester, 16th Mcrs. Kia 2.7.16.   The Manchester Education Committee lists 3 pages of names of teachers serving with the Colours, including women teachers serving in Red Cross Hospitals.  This belief is strengthened  by the fact that my father, my uncle and my wife's relatives enlisted within the first few days of the commencement of hostilities.  You possibly would place these men as "middle class".    I do not think it was "a knee-jerk reaction", in the same way, that early in 1942 and under age, I felt compelled to volunteer for pilot training.   This was no knee-jerk decision.

As regards the enlistment of teachers and "intellectuals" into the Army, I would call your attention to the 20th (University & Public Schools) battalion Royal Fusiliers which enlisted men in Manchester and whose title describes the source of its recruitment.  Robert Graves describes in "Goodbye to All That", that the men of this battalion were "chocolate soldiers" - my relative being one such soldier, but nevertheless  he managed to win a Military Medal before being wounded and subsequently dying in the High Wood battle.

As regards 'conchies" and the 1916 Military Service Act, the situation encompasses all sorts of reasons for delaying enlistment, not least in the matter of Reserve Occupations e.g. Army Boot production in Northampton.

In closing, I trust you are well, and I sense that another of your books is on the way?  Regards. PhilipG.

Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Tim Bell on April 04, 2016, 12:14:53 PM
Gerry,
I recommend the 2nd chapter of Michael Stedman's Pals book for this question.  He suggests the middle class men were unhappy enlisting with working class comrades and the Pals movement was successful because the recruits would not be placed in a battalion with unknown men as their companions. 
I've read elsewhere (can't find source) that the clerks, warehouseman - and teachers didn't feel compelled to enlist in the original Kitchener Service Battalions, because soldiering was not perceived as their duty.  Clearly the numerous overseas volunteers for the Territorials were an exception to this.
As pointed out by Philip, the Public Schools Battalions were another recruiting ground for teachers and effectively another Pals Battalion - formed on University or Public School / Grammar education.  From what I've seen from teachers from these routes, most received commissions - with notable exceptions like Sgt Tawney.  Many PBS men later received commissions and the Battalions were merged.  I was also uncomfortable reading Graves' observations about the men that remained.
It would appear the class system was bridged in other respects.  The 15th Royal Scots - Manchester Scottish drew in men from different backgrounds and we can then look at the Sportsmans Bttns. 
The recruitment choices and decisions in the first few months of the War are certainly intriguing.  The average Manchester Education Committee teacher became an NCO in the Pals.  We the see the Public Schools teachers as their Officers - with loads from Edinburgh (See Aubrey Harris referred to by Charlie May and a colleague of Lt Col Elstob VC)
Tim
ps I hadn't realised the Rifle Brigade and Border Regiment had been recruiting in Manchester because the original Service Bttns were becoming filled in Aug/Sept.  (Suggesting hard to enlist, even if men chose to) This was seen as belittling to the City and another reason to build the Regiment.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: mack on April 05, 2016, 09:08:32 AM
tim.
the border regiment could recruit from anywhere it wanted due to the fact that the border areas were sparsely populated,making it hard for them to get recruits,the rifle brigade and KRRC had no specific area for recruiting because both units had more than three battalions and would need a large area to draw men from.

the 11th manchesters were raised from former regular and territorial soldiers as well as men who were serving,the idea was that it would only need a short period of time to refresh these men who had already been trained,its original destination was france or Belgium.

theres one thing about Manchester teachers that's not widely known,the Manchester police force lost over 600 police officers from its force at the outbreak of war due to enlistment,this left the police badly undermanned,many teachers were recruited as special policemen to fill up the ranks of those who had enlisted,they were ideal candidates because their school hours ended mid afternoon and there was no school at weekends,so they were able to work as bobbies during the evenings,and cover the weekends.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on April 07, 2016, 12:15:31 PM
Although this thread relates to teachers in the Manchester Pals, I would mention that the "University & Public Schools Brigade" was composed of the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st battalions of the Royal Fusiliers.  Three relatives of mine served in the Brigade.  Two enlisted in Manchester and served in the 19th battalion.  One was a lowly paid hand, working in a Bleach works in Whitefield, Manchester.  The second recruit had a managerial status post in the Manchester hatting trade.  The third to join the Regiment was a Law Student at Manchester University and he enlisted in the 20th battalion and won the MM on the La Bassee front, only to fall later in the battle for High Wood in 1916 - a battle well known to the Manchesters.

The Brigade left for France in November 1915.  In respect of the 18th, 19th and 21st battalions, these units were disbanded on the 24th April 1916 having, it would seem, being denuded of men deemed suitable for commissioned rank.

In the case of the 20th battalion however, it would appear, that their CO - Colonel C.H.Bennett DSO - was reluctant to recommend any of his men for commissions, resulting in the battalion being pretty well as intact as it was when it was first formed. 

On the 20th July 1916, Robert Graves' "chocolate soldiers" attacked High Wood and in the resulting battle incurred casualties totalling 397 men.  The style and make-up of the 20th battalion was never to be the same again, but it carried on with new personnel and was disbanded in February 1918.

The publication of Graves' book in 1929, revealed a controversial statement concerning that battle in respect of the military behaviour of two Scottish Regiments and the 20th Royal Fusiliers.   Not surprisingly, this brought forward some anger from the regiments involved and in due time Graves made a form of retraction.

To conclude.  The Law Student is buried in a cemetery in France, the hatting trade manager was discharged on medical grounds and survived the war, albeit in poor health.  As regards the lowly factory worker.  On the disbandment of the 19th Royal Fusiliers in April 1916, he was transferred to the 22nd Bn. Royal Fusiliers serving in "B" Coy.  On the 23rd May, the battalion was in the Talus des Zouaves and ordered to attack.  The attack was cancelled, but "B" Coy. never received the cancellation message. In going forward their casualties in All Ranks numbered 87.  Our Fusilier has no known grave, although we feel we know the field in which he must now lie. Finally, it may be felt that this post is an example of how the social classes in Manchester went to war in 1914 and could also apply to the Manchester Pals battalions.  PhilipG.

Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Gerryh on April 07, 2016, 07:34:21 PM
I wish to thank you for the opportunity to air this topic, and in particular for the fulsome and very helpful replies that were in answer to my thoughts.  Gerryh
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on April 08, 2016, 07:30:16 AM
Gerryh,

Glad to have been of help.  Take care,  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: PhilipG on March 17, 2017, 10:39:27 AM
        2nd Lieutenant Charles Lewis : 6th Manchesters attd. 16th Manchesters

Some additional information is now available in respect of this officer previously mentioned in this thread.

He enlisted in the 10th Devonshires on the 13th September 1914 and in 1915 went with that battalion to Salonica for service with the British Salonica Force.  He was later commissioned into the 6th Manchesters and in September 1917 was attached to the 16th battalion.  He was killed in action at Manchester Hill on the 21st March 1918.  PhilipG
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on March 17, 2017, 11:18:42 AM
Thanks. I shall attempt to find out where he taught ;)
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: Chad1847 on March 18, 2017, 01:31:28 PM
While researching men from St Chad's Cheetham commemorated on the church's war memorial there are 3 men who taught at the school who were killed in action. One, Daniel McIntyre, Cpl 11252 18th Bn Manchester Reg was killed in the battle for Guillemont on 30th July 1916. He had been teaching at the school since Jan 1899 and enlisted on 17th May 1915. 2 teachers appointed to replace him and 2 other members of staff who had joined the colours were also killed - Joseph Parker (listed on the NUT Roll of Honour but who I am struggling to identify any further) and James Louis Riley 2nd Lieut. 1st/7th King's Liverpool Reg, killed in action 29th Sept 1918.
2 teachers survived and returned to the school after the war: Gustave Travers who attested 14th Dec 1914 and joined the 18th Bn Manchester Reg. He was promoted to Lance Corporal on 28th Jan 1915 and transferred to the Royal Engineers (Chemists Coy) on 29th Aug 1915. He later became Headmaster of the school retiring in 1952.
Henry J Moon,(incidentally son of the then Headmaster of St Chad's ) who left for the war on 19th Feb 1915 and served in Royal Lancaster Reg (King's Own).Both these men are listed on the Manchester Education Committee of teachers serving in the forces in 1916.
Chad1847
Title: Re: Teachers in the Pals for Wendyg
Post by: wendyg on March 18, 2017, 05:50:28 PM
Thanks very much for this.  It has filled in some of the professional detail that  i  hadn't got from the Book of Honour.  i have been concentrating on those who worked for Manchester Education Committee and have also used the Teacher Registration index cards. NUT lists and ;) the details other members of the forum have sent me. i have traced their platoons and companies for those in the Pals and with 1911 census studies found out some interesting stuff such as teachers who lived and boarded together, were in the same school. joined up together and placed in the same platoon.  They seemed to get rapid promotion and in some cases early commissions - the 'business' of teachers in both meanings of the word! I hope to eventually post something on the forum. Being a teacher myself I often think about  life in the trenches for a a teacher 100 years ago and now - transition and experience for both!