The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: Clarky53 on May 05, 2011, 12:02:54 PM

Title: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on May 05, 2011, 12:02:54 PM
Hi my name is Fred Clark, I'm 57 and have just joined this forum after advice from the Ashton museum's curater.
I'm researching my grandfather John William Clark. In the National Roll Register it says John was a veteran soldier who had seen service in South Africa. He joined at the outbreak and was placed on coastal defence and other duties. During the first year he contracted an illness which resulted in him being invalided out that same month (May 1915). He lived at 5 Hughes St, Off Ashton Old Road, Ardwick. I can't find John in any census records, I think he was born in 1870 but we don't know where, we suspect Scotland, though Scots Roots has no records of him either.
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks.
                               
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: grimmy on May 06, 2011, 01:54:06 PM
Hello Fred - and welcome.

He was posted to the Army Service Corps (service no: M/397143) after his spell with the Mancs.

Do you know when and where he died? That might help to pinpoint him - there are several candidates.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on May 06, 2011, 02:25:47 PM
Hi Grimmy and thanks for the welcome,
                                                             Thats the numbers I have for him, 4217....M/397143. He survived the war but died in the 20's in Manchester. Any info on my grandad would be so much appreciated. As I wrote the only thing I knew about him was where he lived.
Of course the info I have that I was given could also be the wrong one because you say there are other candidates but I know the one on the National Roll of the Great War IS the right one because my dad lived at Hughes St, Ardwick, M/cr.

                                                          Regards,

                                                         Fred Clark.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: grimmy on May 06, 2011, 03:36:17 PM
Fred,

If your birth year of 1870 is correct then a strong(ish) candidate begins to emerge:

1871 2 Boundary Square, Gorton
William Clark, 39, Coachman, b. Leeds
Eliza Clark, 36, b. Kippax (Yorks)
Edith Clark, 3, b. Wakefield
John W. Clark., 4m, b. Longsight, Manchester (The Ancestry index inexplicably gives his birthplace as Longsight, Moray, Scotland!)

In 1881 they were at 6 Florence St., Gorton.
John Clark, 9, b. Gorton
Minnie M. Clark, 7, b. Gorton

The birth of John William Clark was registered at Ardwick, 1870. That of Minnie M. Clark at Ardwick, 1874.

Minnie M. Clark married George K. Mills at Longsight St Clement, 1895. They were living at 27 Ducie St., Longsight in 1901.

I assume that JWC enlisted at an early age, which is probably why he disappears from later censuses.

Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: mack on May 06, 2011, 07:30:53 PM
hiya fred.
if your grandfather was invalided from the army in may 1915,then 4217 john,w clark is not him because he went to france on 15th july 1915.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on May 08, 2011, 12:15:49 PM
Hi Mack.
            Gutted, thought I had him there. As I said earlier I have him on the National Roll of the Great War. He's not on the 1901 census because he may be in SA?. He's not on the 1911 census on Genes Reunited site as is not my dad, it's so so confusing.
                                           

                                           Cheers.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Wendi on May 09, 2011, 09:17:41 AM
Hi Clarky and welcome to our forum !

Do you have either your Dad's birth Certificate or your grandparents wedding certificate?

I'm thinking there maybe a different way to skin this rabbit !!!

Wendi  ;D
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on May 09, 2011, 12:31:53 PM
Hi Wendi.
              This is what started all the problem's, my father told all us he was born 17th Sept 1909. There is no record of a Frederick Clark born that date in either England Wales or Scotland, there was a suspicion they were  Scots so I joined Scots Roots, again with no joy. So we decided to pursue him via his parent's on the census. They're not there. I knew JWC was a soldier in SA so I visited Ardwick barrack's to see what they knew of him. (I actually found the grave of JWC and my nanna (Gertrude Clark) in Gorton cemetery, they both died in the 1920's.) All I got was the National Roll but they were not in Hughes St in the 1911 census. I have my dads marriage certificate which states he was 25 in February 1935 so 26 that year = 1909. Sorry I can't be more forcoming.

                                            Regards

                                           Fred Clark.

                                   

Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: grimmy on May 09, 2011, 04:19:18 PM
Fred,

Did your father have any brothers/sisters? If so, any dates/places of birth?
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Wendi on May 09, 2011, 04:47:45 PM
........... and can you get a copy of JWC's death cert?  It will be interesting to know who registered his death and should have his age on it.

There is one Frederick Clark whose birth is registered in Essex in the last quarter of 1909.  Your defo sure that this is not your father?

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: grimmy on May 09, 2011, 05:54:41 PM
.......there was also a Fred Clark, birth registered Chorlton  AND a Frederick Clarke, registered Salford, both last quarter 1909.

Though I would expect someone born 17th Sept to be registered 3rd quarter.

I think we might be looking at an overseas birth or a mis-indexing here.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Wendi on May 09, 2011, 06:09:45 PM
Nice one grimmy  ;) Currently you have 42 days to register a birth.  I don't know if it was always that way  :-\

Fred is any of this helping?

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on May 15, 2011, 12:17:31 PM
I went down the library in Deansgate with no joy. What I do have is my dad's ID Card from the war. I was told you could chase this up via the NHS. I made a few call's but no body was any the wiser. As a family we're all confused as dad used to call him self a Scot but they have no record. I am going to get the proper dates for burial for g/dad nd see from there.

                                                                              Thank's for your help so far, Fred Clark.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: mack on May 15, 2011, 02:28:21 PM
hiya fred.
john william was buried in gorton cemetery on 15th may 1930 and gertrude on 18th feb 1929,grave ref I.NC.32.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on May 15, 2011, 04:19:59 PM
Thank's Mack, that's a fantastic assist. I'll get the death cert's tomorrow.  Thank's again.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: grimmy on May 16, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
Both JWC and Gertrude were 50 years old when they died.

Gertrude was almost certainly the dau of Frederick Cooper (b.Manchester) and Caroline (b.Liverpool) of 4 Sarah Ann Street, Gorton (1891 and 1901).

Frederick Cooper married Caroline Price at Chorlton-on-Medlock, St. Stephen, 1878.

No sign of any John William Clark born in the Manchester area 1879-81.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on June 12, 2011, 04:19:32 PM
Hi.
   Now you've established JW was born in Gommersall, Yorkshire, in 1880, and was wed in Manchester in 1903. And knowing he was in the 8th Ardwick's for WW1, are we any nearer to finding if his records are available, or lost in the blitz of WW2. If as I suspect his record's are destroyed, may I take this opportunity to thank you and Wendi, Mack and all those involved at your location's.  The work you people did on the Clark's and Cooper's was utterly fantastic. I've told everyone of your existance and your forum. I will be making a donation to the "heroes fund" as a thank you.

                                         Thank You and Regards,

                                                   Fred Clark.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: timberman on June 12, 2011, 05:02:29 PM
Hi Fred

Had a look on Ancestry the only record I can find is a MIC for John William Clark 4217.
No other records for John. Tried J W Clark, John W Clark and John William Clark and check all the ones in the Manchester's with no joy.

Timberman
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on June 12, 2011, 05:17:20 PM
Here's the National Roll, I don't understand.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: timberman on June 12, 2011, 05:47:33 PM
Hi Fred

The national roll was an independent publication and people paid to have an entry put in it.
Looking at the entry he never went overseas so the medal index card for John William Clark 4217 is not him as no MIC was issued to soldiers that did not see overseas service. Coastal defense  was carried out by the 3rd Battalion and the 4th Battalions of the Manchester Regiment.
3rd Battalion at Cleethorpes  and 4th Battalion at Grimsby.
I will have another look for service and pension records for you.

Timberman
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on June 12, 2011, 06:26:44 PM
Hi Timberman.
                      Would he have had the same army number for The Boer War as WW1?. He may have been in a Yorkshire Regiment?, he was born there, when he served in SA; was there a SA medal?
                                          Thanks Timberman
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: timberman on June 12, 2011, 08:00:09 PM
I still can't find any records even for John in the Yorkshire Regiments.
You could start a topic in the Boer War section and see if someone there can help with the Medal Rolls

Sorry I can't help.

Timberman
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Wendi on June 12, 2011, 08:34:29 PM
Hi Fred !

I also think starting a thread on the Boer War Section is a good idea, we have some ace members there.

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Clarky53 on June 12, 2011, 08:58:42 PM
Thank You to everyone on this site, you've all been so kind and helpful and patient with me. Thank You.

                                Fond Regards,

                                  Carky53.
Title: Re: Pt John William Clark, 4217, 8th Manchester Reg (Ardwick).
Post by: Paul-44 on June 25, 2011, 08:17:00 PM
Hi Clarky53,

I don't have full access to Ancestry but I noticed they had a Jahn W Clarke who was in the Manchester Regiment with 301263, and also 260274 of the Liverpool Regiment ?

Could your man be John Clark of the 1/8 Manchester number 5526, also 301921 (Mcr) and 1836 S/Lancs ?

The only other one I could see is J Clarke of the Manchester Reg with 16136, and Liverpool Reg 30469  ?

Paul