The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: lodgeropes on January 20, 2008, 11:44:36 AM

Title: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 20, 2008, 11:44:36 AM
Hi all,

My grandfather, John Yates was in the Man Reg ( still no luck in narrowing down which batt).  I have recently come across a small first aid book which belonged to him and was given to him by : 2nd class Machine G. James Angus ( 6796) 9th Batt The Royal Highlanders.   The inscription reads to My pal, John Yates ( 28593 )1st Class machine g. Att 9th Batt The Royal Highlanders.
Underneath this is the date 15th March 1915 Ypres.   And a drawing of a cat? :)

Would any of that help me find out which Man Reg Batt he was with?

This forum ( especially Linda  :) )gave me a lot of info last year  regarding my Grandad so I would appreciate any other info.   My brother who remembers Grandad and has the first aid book is pretty sure he was gassed at Ypres and that Grandad had said he was also at the Somme, but when I dont know.    He told my father he was in/with the Black Watch, but my dad never believed him!   Looks like he might of been after all tho.

Any clues or info is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Sharon

Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: themonsstar on January 20, 2008, 01:01:32 PM
Hi Sharon

And welcome  forum.

Do you have a copy of your G/F medal index card as this would help us find his Battalion.
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 20, 2008, 01:26:11 PM

Hi,

I do have the medal card index but how do I get it to you

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: themonsstar on January 20, 2008, 06:14:58 PM
Can you post the codes & pages numbers cheers MS
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: Wendi on January 20, 2008, 09:14:14 PM
Hi Sharon and a Warm Welcome to the new Forum

You can post it as a image yourself, or if you feel more comfortable, email it to me and I'll post it for you.

My email is available under the cat if you hover your curser over the icons. 

Did you understand that last sentence ??? sometimes I frighten myself into a day job LOL

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on January 21, 2008, 07:47:53 AM
yates 28593

Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: The Colonel on January 21, 2008, 03:32:02 PM
Hi Sharon, I have checked the WWI service records and pension records available on ancestry.com. Sadly, at the moment records for your James Yates are not there. Ancestry.com are still adding WWI records to their site.... so keep your fingers crossed!  ;)

It's nice to see you back on the forum. Hope you got on ok with your family research  ;D

The Colonel.
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 22, 2008, 04:29:46 AM
Hi Colonel :o)

Thanks for checking for me.   The family research took a bit of a back seat to real life family issues for awhile but getting back into the whole obsession again now  ;D

I checked Ancestry records for James and John ( his real first name) as well, but found nothing so your not alone there!

Is there any way of checking which Btns were attached to the Royal Highlanders?  Is that how it worked or was it more likely to be individuals atahced rather than Btn's??   Was also wondering if the location of Ypres would give a clue as to his Btn but it seems like they were all there in 1915!

And if he served at Ypres wouldnt he have the Star medal on his index card?  ( which I dont think he does but Im not sure)

Probably all stupid questions but if anyone can enlighten me on how it all worked I'd appreciate it.     And Im assuming that Machine G. is for machine gunner?  Would that be right?

Thanks all for your help :)
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on January 22, 2008, 09:31:03 AM

the card posted is for a soldier that went abroad after 31-12-15, and if you have proof (ie the first aid book) that he was there in 1915, he would have been entitled to the 14-15 star

the service number is from a range that were issued relatively early war so i'm wondering if there is another card for his 14-15 star

chris
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 22, 2008, 09:44:48 AM
Thanks for that Chris.    When you say his number is one that was issued fairly early, how early would you say?   If there was another card for him would it be the same number?   I found his medal card through his Labour corp #396890 but Im assuming that he was in the Labour Corp after the Man Reg.   

The first aid book basically confirmed things grandad told my father and brother ie the black watch connection, gassed at Ypres etc so Im looking at it as proof  :)   
Just supposing he was entitled to the 14-15 Star but never received it...is there anything I  can do about it now?

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on January 22, 2008, 10:21:53 AM
mack may well have a better idea but i'd say late 14 early 15

you won't be able to do anything about the medals now i'm afraid, do you know where the others went?

we really could do with a look at the war and victory medal rolls but they are labour corps rolls that we don't have, unless we could get it done as a favour ( from ivor lee, Roy??)
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 22, 2008, 11:47:30 AM
Hi chris,

Not sure what happened to Grandads medals.  He died in the late 60's and our family had already moved to Australia.    Hopefully the medals went to family still over there but unfortunately I am not in contact with them  :(

Will keep searching for clues.

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: themonsstar on January 22, 2008, 01:46:38 PM
Ivor may tell us the unit in the LC put as for the medal roll?

The 9th Service Bn Black Watch did not land in France until 8th July 1915 & did not go near Ypres in 1915.
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 23, 2008, 10:52:54 AM
Oh crud! :(  The more info I seem to get, the less I seem to know!!!!!

Thanks for letting me know.   Now I have to try and figure out why the bloody book has that inscription if they werent even there!!!!   

Just wanted to clarify something about the medals on John (James) Yates index card - could they have been just gotten due to service with the Labour Corp and is it possible there is another medal card for his service with the Man Reg, or doesnt it work that way?   

I cant even find a medal card index for James Angus 6796, 9th Btn Royal Highlanders ( the guy who gave grandad the first aid book)

I suppose its possible that Grandad was a compulsive liar and the whole inscription was made up to impress people and that he never got further than Ashton Under Lyne for the whole war  ???   

Ok...back to the drawing board.

Thanks all for your help and input  :)

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on January 23, 2008, 01:58:38 PM
no, the fact that he entitles to the medals means that he went abroad in a theatre of war, and the labour corps was no picnic!!!

and here he is proudly wearing his Manchester Regiment badge on a rather crumpled cap

(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/246495180-M.jpg)
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: tisgrannie on January 23, 2008, 07:15:35 PM
Wow how did you come by that photo harribob?
tisgrannie
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on January 23, 2008, 07:19:15 PM

you don't expect me to reveal all my secret sources do you tis?









(sharon sent it to me!!)
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: Wendi on January 23, 2008, 08:33:29 PM
Hi Sharon!

A truly lovely photo!  so many of the men are pictured in "formal pose" this card is far more relaxed and has a certain warmth for it !

Who is the lady?

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 24, 2008, 07:56:16 AM

Thanks for posting the pic Chris  :)  And thanks for the kind words Wendi.

The lady in the pic is John Yates wife Annie Yates (formerly Annie Allen nee Barber - her first husband Percy Allen details below)
Annie is my grandmother ( my mums mum).   I was born in Australia so never met my grandparents, but looking into the history of the family has made me feel incredibly close to them.  :)

Private PERCY ALLEN

1901, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment
who died age 20
on 10 July 1916
Husband of Annie Yates (formerly Allen), of 21, Peel St., Ashton-under-Lyne.
Remembered with honour
THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Percy and Annie were only married a short time ( couple of months) before he was killed.
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on January 24, 2008, 02:04:11 PM
so (getting this straight in my head) annie was married to two manchester regiment soldiers?

first percy, who died on the somme and then john
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: tisgrannie on January 24, 2008, 08:19:24 PM
How sad is that! Isn't it amazing the human stories that have come out on here!
tisgrannie
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: The Colonel on January 25, 2008, 03:01:25 PM
Yes Chris, Annie Barber was married to two Manchester Regiment soldiers.
I am wondering whether this is a "first" in our Manchester Regiment records?

Lovely photo Sharon, thanks for sharing it with us  ;)

The Colonel.
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 27, 2008, 07:09:13 AM
Sorry for the delay in reply.  Yep The Colonel is correct :)

I sometimes wonder if Percy and John knew each other. Annie married Percy in 1916 and then married John Yates in 1919.  From what I can gather they all lived in the Ashton Under Lyne area around these times so I guess its possible.

The human stories about the lads are my favorite, tisgrannie, that and the photo section ;D
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: tisgrannie on January 27, 2008, 09:08:18 AM
I'm sure mack would know where they lived. He usually comes up with who's next door to who! he's a star *
regards
tisgrannie
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on January 28, 2008, 12:30:35 PM
Well I know John Yates parent lived at 62 Tatton St, AUL at least from 1916 - 1919 ( possibly before and after those dates)
Annie Yates ( nee Barber/Allen) lived at 13 Wood St AUL in 1919 and (at some stage) 21 Peel St, AUL. 
As for Percy I just dont know. 
I havent tracked down his family history yet  :-[

If I find out anymore I will definately let you all know  :)

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: tisgrannie on January 29, 2008, 07:20:10 AM
Looks like you have lots of info already. I  hope you enjoy your further searches. Do let us know.
best wishes
tisgrannie
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on February 04, 2008, 09:38:38 AM
Just going back over all the info I have stored on this computer and found a reply from Ivor Lee regarding John Yates and the Labour corp:

According to the Medal Roll he was initially in the Manchester Regiment with a regimental number of 28593.
 
A Labour Corps number of 396890 indicates that he was transferred to the LC around May 1917.
 
I do have a problem as I have no idea when he was transferred to 16 Company.  His number suggests he was initially in either 117 or 783 company although I cannot be sure which one.
 
In order to find out more you would need to check his personal record. However only about 1 in 3 records survived the bombing of 1940. If it did you will find it at the National Archives, Kew in WO 363 or WO 364. The bad news is that these classes cannot be searched online.


Isnt a lot of info but Im hoping I can piece it all together eventually and find out more about Grandad  :)

Still no luck in finding James Angus ( who gave grandad the first aid book)   Had another look at the  books inscription  and below is the full version as it is written in the book:

First Aid to the Injured - The St. John Ambulance Association
by James Cantlie MA., MB., FRCS
 
Revised 1901 
Reference 58/1901   
 It can be "obtained at St. John's Gate, Clerkenwell, London" for 1s. or by post 1s,2d.   Nothing else to tell us where it comes from.
 
Inscription:
"To my best pal John Yates
from
2nd Class machine gunner  James Angus 6796
9th Batt The Royal Highlanders.
 
(Drawing of cat)
 
Till hell freezes
Jamie & Jock"
 
Opposite page:
 
"1st class Mach. G John Yates 28693
Machine Gun Corps
Att  9th Batt The Royal Highlanders
15th March  1915 YPRES"
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on February 04, 2008, 10:10:33 AM
i can't understand why we can't find james angus ???

sharon, can you scan the pages and post them here, i am just thinking that a pair of fresh eyes may see something more
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on February 04, 2008, 10:27:51 AM
Will  contact my brother ( who has the book) and see if its possible.....I had another look at it over the weekend and it may not scan very well but if we can do it will email it to you as soon as I get it.   
I dunno why we cant find James either  ???  Have tried searches with all variations of the names and number but nothing comes up.

It worried me that the 9th Bn Royal Highlanders werent even at Ypres at that time as well.    Over at the Great War forum i did a search and found a reference to the Royal Scots 9th which was at Ypres around  that time.  Next to Royal Scots was Highlanders in brackets so do you think its possible Im looking for the wrong regiment?   probably reaching a bit  :) and I still couldnt find James Angus ( or Angus James) with the Royal Scots anyway!

Will see what I can do about a scan ;D
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on February 04, 2008, 10:31:11 AM
i've tried various including all the 6796's, i did wonder if his s/n was changed in 1917 to a 6 figure number, there is one J angus on the index cards like that but i'm clutching at straws
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: lodgeropes on February 04, 2008, 10:44:50 AM
But those straws are just begging to be clutched at times ;D

So is that common for s/n's to be changed to a 6 digit number?  Could explain why he cant be found under 6796 I guess. :-\
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: harribobs on February 04, 2008, 11:35:31 AM
i guessing really Sharon, but it's the only thing i can think of, he was abroad, therefore he was entitled to medals but he's not obviously there under that number. i have certainly come across manchester lads who could only be found on one of their numbers
Title: Re: John Yates (28593)
Post by: cypresslodge on November 09, 2009, 04:15:23 AM
Hi all,

Just thought I would update you on my Grandfather John Yates.  Unfortunately the inscription in the first aid book is still a mystery and doesnt tally with the records I can find.   Unless he enlisted in another name orior to the current records.  Still no luck finding the mysterious James Angus either!!!!!  I wont give up on it but unless I get some other clues, this part may remain a frustrating mystery!

It appears that he was with the 23rd Btn Man Regiment.  Before my trip to the Somme a friend kindly copied the  service records from the NA for me - of course while I was away Ancestry got up to date with the records so they are now there as well :)

My understanding is signed up on the 9th of August 1915 and that he was with the 27th Btn for his training ( and please correct me if Im reading the records wrong!) and was sent to France with the 23rd ( bantams) on the 2-6-1916.
His records show alot of offences - from disprespect to NCO to numerous cases of absences.
The part that surprised me was that he was court martialled for Self Inflicted gun shot wound ( to the left hand while cleaning his rifle )and was obviously found guilty ( he claims it was an accident  but apparently there was a witness) and was sentenced to 3 months.
I believe SIW occured around or on the 27th of October 1916 ( this part Im not 100% on but this date is mentioned in his records) 
His FGCM was in March 1917.   Later that year he was with the Labour Corp. (where he got into trouble for absences  again!)
In March 1921 he enlisted with the 9th Btn Manchester Regiment and was issued with another number - 3516128. 
I just wanted to share what I had found out in case anyone was interested :) If it wasnt for the wonderful people on this forum and the GWF I wouldnt know anything about my grandfather so thank you all.

Cheers
Sharon