The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: KSP on October 22, 2007, 09:07:29 PM

Title: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 22, 2007, 09:07:29 PM
Hi there,  Linda invited me to join your Forum.
I am looking for help finding out further information on Corporal Samuel Salthouse.  Samuel enlisted in the Manchester Regiment under Service Number 36520, he was later transferred to the East Lancs Regiment, 7th Batt. and was given a new service number 29834.
The National Archives give very brief details of a Campaign Medal - Victory Medal, Roll H/1/102B6, page 1428. but no 'Theatre of War' or qualifying dates were entered (although others on the same page had qualifying dates in 1915).
Samuel was born in Oldham but enlisted into the Manchester Regiment in Ashton under Lyne.  He is listed on the Ashton Memorial and also Panel 34, Ypres (Meningate) Memorial.  He was killed in action on 20 July 1917. 
I have been unable to find an obituary for Samuel. Can anyone give me any further info or direction?    Cheers
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: regi-mental on October 22, 2007, 09:27:07 PM
KSP,

Try this link for the Order of Battle (ORBAT) for the 7th (Service) Battalion East Lancs:

http://www.warpath.orbat.com/divs/19_div.htm#56_bde

Andy,

Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 22, 2007, 10:55:36 PM
Thanks Andy,

It looks like Samuel's Date of Death was between battles perhaps?

I am afraid I have no idea whether he has a grave. Is it unlikely given that he is listed on the Meningate?

Apologies for my ignorance if the answer is obvious!!

Sara
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: harribobs on October 22, 2007, 11:30:38 PM
Sara

welcome to the group and please don't worry about asking questions, that's what we're here for

Sam has no known grave, it could be that his body was never recovered, or that is was and the location was lost or that he couldn't be identified. when you visit a CWGC cemetery you will see the hundreds of headstones that have only 'known unto god' on them.

The menin gate was built as a memorial to the lost soldiers in the Ypres area ( known as the salient) there is also another memorial to the lost men at Tyne Cot cemetery

the Menin Gate
(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/34334325-M-1.jpg)

Tyne Cot
(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/34337523-M.jpg)


we do have photo's of all the manchester's names on both memorials but as sam was serving with another regiment, i'm afraid it's not in my files

looking at his service number and his medals, he would have been sent abroad ( to france and flanders) after 1915, he would probably have been transferred to the ELs after being wounded or sick

i think we may have someone on the forum who can give you a better idea of what the ELs were doing at the time of his death  (Fritz??)

cheers

chris

PS.. sdgw entry attached (click on it)
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: The Colonel on October 23, 2007, 01:26:12 PM
Hi. Although Samuel Salthouse enlisted at Ashton his service number 36520 does not appear to be a 9th Battalion soldiers number to me ( I could be wrong though!).... any thoughts chaps? Can we work out which battalion of the Manchesters Samuel served in?

I have checked through the Reporter newspapers that I have for Samuel's obituary, (I don't have all that many pages for 1917 at present) and the enlistments that were published, but I have had no luck in finding Samuel.

The Colonel.
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: harribobs on October 23, 2007, 03:13:20 PM
Hi. Although Samuel Salthouse enlisted at Ashton his service number 36520 does not appear to be a 9th Battalion soldiers number to me ( I could be wrong though!).... any thoughts chaps? Can we work out which battalion of the Manchesters Samuel served in?

not by that S/N, that range was used throughout the regiment IIRC, don't forget that Ashton wasn't just the 9th batt HQ it was the regimental depot as well!! ;)
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 23, 2007, 03:19:23 PM
i think samuel was living in manchester long before the war began,thats probably why theres no mention of him in the ashton papers,he didnt see service overseas with the manchesters.
manchesters with a service number above 30000,are from the training reserve.
those with a number below 30000,came from the manchesters reserve companies.

the training reserve,was began in 1916.
amongst the men,where soldiers who had previously been wounded/sick,and where under training to bring them back to physical strenghth.
it also contained men who had been called up in 1916 etc.
basically,it was a pool of available manpower,who were sent to reinforce the next regiment who were in need of reinforements.

mack
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: The Colonel on October 23, 2007, 04:38:25 PM
Cheers for the info and insight Chaps.
I have checked the online WW1 papers listed on ancestry.com for Sara, but again ...I had no luck in finding Samuel  ::)

The Colonel.
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 24, 2007, 01:18:34 AM
Hi Guys,

I am confused now.
If the training reserve didn't begin until 1916 does that mean that he didn't enlist until 1916?  Would he then have gone overseas, come back possibly wounded or ill and then re-enlisted into the Lancashire regiment?
The campaign medal I have the copy of details him under the East Lancs Regiment.  Could this medal be retrospective and only apply to the battle in which he died.  Sorry showing my ignorance again.
Mack, what makes you think he was living in Manchester?  His coming of age party was held at his parents house, Manchester Rd, Ashton.  Perhaps they would have held it there even if he was no longer living at home?  He may have even married but I have no knowledge of any marriage and my gran never indicated that he had been married at the time of his death.  Would he have been added to the Ashton Memorial if he didn't live in Ashton?

Cheers
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 24, 2007, 02:51:26 AM
hiya sara.
samuel originally enlisted as pte 36520 manchester regt.
he had transferred to the east lancs regt before he left england,and thats the regt he was serving with when he was killed.
his medals were issued to the regt(s) he was serving with overseas.
ww1 medals are only issued to men who served overseas.

i may have the wrong man.
was his parents james+emily
aged 21(C 1914)
one of 10 children

mack
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 24, 2007, 01:28:34 PM
Hi Mack,

You are correct his parents were James and Emily.  His 'Coming of Age' party (presumably aged 21) was in 1915.
There is debate over how many children James and Emily had.  Our Family had been told 13, however the 1901 census indicates 11.  Another story is that two of Samuel's sisters were walking by the canal and one fell in and drowned - more info I am trying to track down!  This would tie in with him being 1 of 10 children at the time he enlisted.

If I have understood you correctly does that mean that Samuel went overseas once, when he died, or twice (campaign medal and when he died)?

Also I would love to find an Obituary.  I would think there would be one as James was apparently quite a well known figure in Ashton, unless of course he joined up against his fathers wishes (all his children were expected to go into the family business).  Do you think it is unlikely that the obituary will have been in the Ashton reporter (there did seem to be a gap in the obituaries detailed on the Ashton Pals site between mid June and December so I wondered if some were missed)?  If so is there a paper that it would have been more likely to appear in and do you know if I can access old copies?

Thanks a lot for all your help
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: Wendi on October 24, 2007, 03:33:21 PM
His 'Coming of Age' party (presumably aged 21) was on 09/02/1915.

Hi Sara

Samuel's birth is registered in Oldham in the first quarter of 1894.

Just as an aside, as you may already be aware of this, his father may possibly have been named after a sibling who died.  The birth and death of a James Whiteside Salthouse in 1855 in the quarter to December.  Followed by another birth recorded in 1857 for the same name.  All three instances are for the Garstang district.

Wendi  :)



Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 24, 2007, 05:32:44 PM
Thanks Wendi,

That information ties in with my assumed DOB for Samuel.  You may well be right about James Whiteside as there is a year gap betweem him and his older brother according to the 1861 census.  Do you mind me asking how you source your info?  Just wondered as I am hitting blanks on several searches and I am new to this. 

Cheers
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 24, 2007, 10:18:11 PM
hiya sara.
james had 6/7 people working for him in his grocery business as well as his children,that sounds like a fair sized shop.
is it possible that he had more than one shop.and his sons were managing them.
his kids were born in different areas around tameside+m/c.
6 were born in ashton
1 in dukinfield
2 in oldham
2 in manchester

their residence in 1881,was 125 brighton terrace,hope st,dukinfield.

BTW,this is your uncle wilf
corporal 36521 wilfred salthouse,manchester regt
he was samuels older brother,they enlisted at the same time.

mack


Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 24, 2007, 10:20:34 PM
hiya sara.
samuel originally enlisted as pte 36520 manchester regt.
he had transferred to the east lancs regt before he left england,and thats the regt he was serving with when he was killed.
his medals were issued to the regt he was serving with overseas.
ww1 medals are only issued to men who served overseas.

i may have the wrong man.
was his parents james+emily
aged 21[C 1914]
one of 10 children

mack
how did the lines get on this post ???
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 24, 2007, 11:43:58 PM
Hi Mack,

I wish I knew how you found out all this info!  Thanks very much for taking the trouble.

James's Business was not as glorified as a shop I am afraid.  He ran market stalls in many places including Ashton, Higher Openshaw & Shudehill Market in Manchester.   Apparently he was very successful though, hence the number of staff I suppose.

Was Wilfrid genuinely in the Manchester Regiment, rather than moved to East Lancs like Samuel?  I think he was still alive after 1918, do you happen to know anything about his service record? - Chancing my arm eh!


Have you had any thoughts on where I might locate an Obituary for Samuel?  I would love to track it down if there was one.

Cheers

Sara
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 25, 2007, 08:42:28 AM
hiya sara.
wilfred only served with the manchesters.
i searched the ashton reporter,but i couldnt find samuel,he may turn up in some of the stuff that woodys doing for the colonel.
mack
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 25, 2007, 08:57:22 AM
sara.
most of the service records for men whos surname began with S,survived the bombing in ww2,monsstar[roy]is the resident researcher at kew,he doesnt charge a fortune,and hes thorough,linda and other members use his services,drop him a PM.
mack ;D
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: Wendi on October 25, 2007, 10:15:41 AM
how did the lines get on this post ???

Mack it's the brackets.  The square ones [ and ] are understood by the web as "commands"  to avoid it happening again it's best to use the rounded brackets ( and ) by pressing shift and 9 or shift and 0

I've taken them out for you  ;)

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: Wendi on October 25, 2007, 10:25:16 AM
Do you mind me asking how you source your info? 

Not at all sara that's what we are here for !!!

I actually subscribe to www.ancestry.co.uk if you watch the national press there are often introductory offers, free for the first month and such like.  Another good subscription site is www.findmypast.com

However there is a lot on the web for free.  http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ have the indexes for Births, Marriages and Deaths in England & Wales.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/default.asp have the 1881 Census and various parish records.

I guess it really depends upon what exactly you are looking for.

What kind of blanks are you drawing ???

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 25, 2007, 10:48:59 PM
Thanks once again Mack and Wendi,

Mack,

I will keep my fingers crossed that Woody's search turns something up re the Obituary for Samuel.  Do you think the Ashton Reporter is the most likely publication to have anything?

I will contact Monsstar, I assume PM means personal message?  If a record exists is it likely to have a photo do you think?

Wendi,

Thanks for those suggested sites, I had looked at www.ancestory.co.uk so maybe I'll follow that up.

I am working my way back in time, currently trying to complete detail on Samuel's immediate family.  Using the censuses I have managed to find his brothers and sisters that survived, but the ages indicate that there may have been others that died either at birth or a young age.  Also trying to find dates of death is tricky, when I look up the death registers I just seem to get results based on the surname (even though it asks for Christian name as well) and then end up with just about every quarter coming up as a match but having no relevant info on them.

Cheers
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: mack on October 25, 2007, 11:11:08 PM
a good paper to search,is the cheshire herald
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 25, 2007, 11:22:24 PM
Thanks once againMack,

You knew I was going to ask how I do that!  Can it be done over the internet or do you have to visit somewhere in person?

Also I tried to send a message to 'monsstar' but the name isn't recognised, have I got the wrong name?

Really sorry, I am a pest I know!
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: harribobs on October 25, 2007, 11:39:34 PM
we're here to answer questions  ;D  so don't worry

roy's name on the forum is   themonsstar  go to the member list and find him there or look for one of his posts ( although they are a bit rare  ;D )

chris
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on October 25, 2007, 11:45:11 PM
Cheers Chris,

I will try again.
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: Wendi on October 27, 2007, 05:06:20 PM
Hi sara !

Tracing deaths is very tricky, often family graves give up more information than trying to track down the indexes, but of course you have to have some idea where they are buried  ::)

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on October 28, 2007, 12:07:17 AM
i think we may have someone on the forum who can give you a better idea of what the ELs were doing at the time of his death  (Fritz??)

Sorry! Just seen this thread (been internet-free for a week away grave-robbing (heaven!!!))

Anyway, on the night of 18th/19th July 1917, the 7/ELR went into the frontline, holding a section just west of Groenlinde Caberet (at the extremeties of the line captured after the Messines battle) - C & D coys were actually in the frontline, B Coy in Rose Wood and A Coy in reserve in Goudezonne Farm.The approaches to these positions were constantly shelled and were considered extremely hazardous, but the actual tour in the line (upto the 24th as far as I can make out) was considered a quiet one with just occasional shelling of the front and the usual sniper activity (though the last day involved an attack on Green Wood in which the 7/ELR were victims of a "friendly fire" incident).

Hope this helps (bet you're going to ask for a map extract now aren't you? :D)

Dave
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on October 28, 2007, 12:17:54 AM
Hope this helps (bet you're going to ask for a map extract now aren't you? :D)

Go on then (map dated 18th July 1917)...

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/CROONAERT/greenwood.jpg)

Dave
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: harribobs on October 28, 2007, 01:10:01 AM
amazing!

thanks dave  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment
Post by: KSP on November 14, 2007, 11:27:04 PM

Sorry I have not been on line for a while.

Just wanted to say thanks very much to Dave for the information on movements at the time of Samuel's death.

Cheers,  thanks for taking the trouble.

Sara