The Manchester Regiment Forum

World War 2 => 1939 - 1945 => Topic started by: themonsstar on January 18, 2009, 07:04:09 PM

Title: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: themonsstar on January 18, 2009, 07:04:09 PM
Ashton Reporter 1940
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 05, 2009, 11:38:43 PM
These men were aboard MV Capable, an armed merchant vessel.  L/Cpl Langridge was serving as a bren gunner.  I expect Pte Gregory was, too.  The vessel struck a mine whilst heading into Portsmouth on 5th June 1940.  MV Capable sank close to Bembridge IOW.  The question must be:  whose mine was it?
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 06, 2009, 11:16:06 AM
CWGC has them both down as civvies & the only 2 men lost to MV Capable ???

GREGORY
Initials:    W
Nationality:    United Kingdom
Rank:    Civilian
Regiment/Service:    Civilian War Dead
Date of Death:    05/06/1940
Casualty Type:    Civilian War Dead
Reporting Authority:    M.V. "CAPABLE"

LANGRIDGE
Initials:    F
Nationality:    United Kingdom
Rank:    Civilian
Regiment/Service:    Civilian War Dead
Date of Death:    05/06/1940
Casualty Type:    Civilian War Dead
Reporting Authority:    M.V. "CAPABLE"

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 06, 2009, 11:22:49 AM
......as well as in the Manch maybe & neither remembered on the Portsmouth War Memorial ....... it's a bit of a stretch for Pte W Gregory to be remembered at Dunkirk ???

LANGRIDGE, FREDERICK
Initials:    F
Nationality:    United Kingdom
Rank:    Lance Corporal
Regiment/Service:    Manchester Regiment
Unit Text:    D.E.M.S. Personnel
Age:    23
Date of Death:    05/06/1940
Service No:    3531708
Additional information:    Son of Frederick Ernest and Maggie Langridge, of Audenshaw, Lancashire.
Casualty Type:    Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:    Panel 44, Column 2.
Memorial:    PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL

GREGORY, WILFRED
Initials:    W
Nationality:    United Kingdom
Rank:    Private
Regiment/Service:    Manchester Regiment
Unit Text:    2/9th Bn.
Age:    19
Date of Death:    05/06/1940
Service No:    3531701
Additional information:    Son of Joseph Gregory, and of Doris Gregory, of Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire.
Casualty Type:    Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:    Column 119.
Memorial:    DUNKIRK MEMORIAL
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 06, 2009, 02:09:05 PM
this is all that his listed on ,
http://www.naval-history.net/

Wednesday, 5 June 1940
DEMS, Manchester Regt

 LANGRIDGE, Frederick, Lance Corporal, Army, 3531708, killed

 
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 06, 2009, 02:59:38 PM
What does D E M S Personnel stand for ?
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 06, 2009, 03:30:34 PM
 hi wendi,    D.E.M.S.: Naval Gunners in Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships (DEMS) 
Personnel: 
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 06, 2009, 05:19:17 PM
 i have removed first post, wrong  ship, this his i believe the right one capable,
Another small vessel that came to grief in Spithead. This was the Capable, a mere 216 ton coaster which was a very familiar sight around the coasts during the 1920/30s. Early in June 1940 it left Alderney with a cargo of stone for Portsmouth; but on the 5th when almost in sight of the harbour it struck a mine and foundered with the loss of its five-man crew and two Territorial gunners. This seemed a particularly sad end for such a doughty little vessel, especially as ten years earlier it had grounded on Atherfield Ledge off the Isle of Wight. Although not many vessels managed to escape from this dangerous spot, the Capable was finally refloated and repaired, despite being badly damaged. It continued steadily to ply its trade until that fateful day off Bembridge.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 06, 2009, 05:27:07 PM
Thanks tony  ;)

but on the 5th when almost in sight of the harbour it struck a mine and foundered with the loss of its five-man crew and two Territorial gunners.

It still seems strange to me that the five-man crew are not commemorated on CWGC  :-\

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 06, 2009, 05:33:29 PM
..........and

The newspaper says there were 2 survivors ?

Frederick !  What started your interest in the boat and these 2 men?

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 06, 2009, 05:47:38 PM
hi wendi, i have tried to find the crew but no joy as yet, but i will ,most merchant seaman are on the tower hill memoriel, ,  but i have to find a listing to the ship first,
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 06, 2009, 08:27:31 PM
My name is also Frederick Langridge.  L/Cpl Langridge was my uncle, and I was named after him.  The circumstances of his death have always been a bit of a mystery, not only to myself.  I was shocked that the boat was lost so close to home: we always imagined it to have happened off the continent.
Uncle Fred wrote a number of letters home during his service.  These were transcribed by my late uncle David Langridge, and I have copies.  He relates his experiences aboard the Capable, visiting French ports, and his impressions of the French servicemen.  The letters, alas, came to an abrupt end, but reading them made me want to find out more.  I am very grateful for your efforts.
His brother, Norman was also in the Manchesters, surviving Dunkirk and, indeed the war.  My father was rejected as medically unfit, so he joined the Pioneer Corps instead.  He survived the war, too.  My brother and I have it in mind to compile an account of the brothers' war for the rest of the family, so would be grateful for anything anyone can tell us.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 06, 2009, 09:15:51 PM
Hi Frederick !!

My brother and I have it in mind to compile an account of the brothers' war for the rest of the family, so would be grateful for anything anyone can tell us.

What a wonderful idea.  You might visit the BBC website and type in the MV Capable ~ just a thought ~ they are collecting memories of WW2.

We will keep on digging.  Have you approached the Maritime Museum in Portsmouth ?

TONY !!!  Please can you give the reference for your recently quoted piece ?

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 06, 2009, 11:01:26 PM
Nothing from the BBC.  The one single reference I can find on the Internet is on the site of UKDiving that gives the location of the wreck and a few other details.  As for Portsmouth, thank you, we will try that.
As for Uncle Norman, he was in Iceland for a while - an interesting situation there - where he met up with my father who was also part of the occupation garrison.  I have a photo of the brothers together in Iceland.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 07, 2009, 09:06:48 AM
wendi,    http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?1218     
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 07, 2009, 09:29:22 AM
Cheers tony ! 

now that's 2 internet references for Frederick  :D  Earlier I said Maritime Museum  ::)  I actually meant Naval Museum http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/research_info.htm sorry !

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 07, 2009, 12:23:59 PM
OK.  Norman's daughter lives in Portsmouth.  I'll get her on it!  Any details of Norman's record?  :)
I've got to say: I'm really impressed with this forum!
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 07, 2009, 01:37:53 PM
Thank you for your kind words !

Norman's daughter could apply for his service record if she wishes.  All the info she needs to apply for it with is here http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html and she'll need a copy of his death cert.

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 07, 2009, 01:53:44 PM
 a little update , no joy  with a crew list so no chance of finding the five crew members  on the tower hill memorial, with out going through the lot  and using just the  date, sorry i don't have the time,
the MV CAPABLE  was on a return trip from ALDERNEY,  her cargo stone, 1/4 of the male population was in the stone industry on ALDERNEY,
Around 1,400 people lived in Alderney in 1940. Once France fell to the Germans,
given the choice between evacuating and remaining, almost the entire population elected
 to leave after a mass meeting at Les Butes.
 They were taken to Weymouth, England on Sunday, June 23.

British steamer CAPABLE was sunk on a mine near Horsesand Fort, Spithead.
 The entire crew of five men and two Territorial guards were all lost on the steamer.
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1302-p-2.html
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 07, 2009, 02:33:02 PM
 i just had to find one,    could anyone  take a photo of PANAL 23, ON TOWER HILL MEMORIEL to find the rest of the crew
BLOOM, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Chief Engineer
Regiment/Service: Merchant Navy
Unit Text: M.V. Capable (London)
Age: 46
Date of Death: 05/06/1940
Additional information: Husband of F. Bloom, of Horsham, Sussex.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 23.
Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 07, 2009, 08:03:32 PM
i have just gone through the tower hill memoriel  and i have only found one more,
SULLIVAN, JOHN DENNIS
Initials: J D
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Master
Regiment/Service: Merchant Navy
Unit Text: S.S. Capable (London)
Age: 58
Date of Death: 05/06/1940
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 23.
Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 07, 2009, 09:43:01 PM
tony you are remarkable !!

I'm sure Frederick will appreciate all this, perhaps we should think about consolidating all this info, it seems a pity that MV Capable is remembered from Plymouth to Dunkirk and Tower Hill and not where she lays  :-\

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 08, 2009, 08:17:34 AM
Indeed I do appreciate it.  As I say: I am impressed.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 08, 2009, 08:21:54 AM
       
hi wendi, i have posted on one of my naval sites for any info on the mv capable, and maybe get a better picture, she was carrying stone from alderney,   1/4 of the male population worked in the stone industry
on alderney, at the end of june1940 all the islanders were moved off,
i think she his classed as a war grave,


     
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: themonsstar on August 08, 2009, 08:09:58 PM
This is from LLoyd's War Losses WW2 Vol 1.

5th June 1940.

Ship. Capable
Flag. Brit
Tons Gross.216
Voyage. Alderney for Portsmouth
Cargo. Stone
Position. 131 degs, Horse Sand Fort 2.8miles
How. Mine
Personnel. Crew 5 & 2 Soldiers T.F. All lost
Remarks.
Permission given for dispersal of wreck in 50,42,44 N-10,55 W. Charted position of wreck is 80 degs, St Heren's Fort Light, 2.72 Miles.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on August 09, 2009, 08:12:13 AM
found the cook, http://www.memorials.inportsmouth.co.uk/war-graves/milton/e-g.htm

OSCAR FABIAN FREDRICKSON,  son of carl & caring fredrickson and husband to may everline fredrickson
he his buired  and photo of grave on the site, so the other two could have been found also and buried,
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 17, 2009, 01:59:37 PM
I'm making quite a bit of progress with this now.  It turns out that two of the crew lived in Great Yarmouth - one of the ports visited whilst the two Manchesters lads were aboard.  I haven't been able to identify them yet, but I'm working on it.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on August 19, 2009, 11:03:42 PM
The men are list as civilians on the CWG memorial.  There could be a good reason for this:

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=D.E.M.S.:_Defensively_Equipped_Merchant_Ships

From it’s earliest beginnings in February 1940 to the official formation as the Maritime Royal Artillery, MRA, in February 1941, eventually some six regiments, 24 port detachments would number over 14,000 men including 170 officers. 26,000 DEMS gunners (i.e. Royal Navy/Marines) were to serve during WW2, of whom 2,713 would lose their lives. 841 naval gallantry awards were made. This includes MRA, who received naval not army medals. There were also occasions when the RAF Regiment manned the guns, on troopships transporting RAF personnel and importantly it should not be forgotten that over 150,000 Merchant Navy seamen were also trained and active members of this gallant group. DEMS/MRA gun crews served on over 7,000 vessels during the course of the war. All members of the armed forces that served aboard DEMS were required to sign on as members of the crew, as Merchant seamen and were therefore under control of the ship’s master. More often than not the senior rank in the military personnel that made up the gun crews would be an N.C.O. Usually the ship’s Second Mate was designated as the Gunnery Officer and would have undergone a gunnery training course at one of the training centres at major ports around the country. Somewhat confusingly, it now seems usual to use the term DEMS to cover all such personnel.

****It was a necessity for such military personnel to sign on as “Deck-hands” allowing them, under international law, to visit neutral countries without being interred.**** The need for civilian clothing for such occasions meant that a disproportionate amount of kit was needed as crews would not know the destination of their vessels prior to embarkation. Another result of this was that they qualified for payment of an extra sixpence (2p) per day for a Royal Navy gunner, on top of his 14 shillings a week as an Able-bodied seaman (having successfully passed the weapons training, promotion from ordinary seaman was automatic). The Maritime Royal Artillery gunners however had an increase of one shilling (5p) per month. In 1941 the Merchant Navy paid able-bodied seamen ten pound, twelve shillings and sixpence per month plus a war bonus of ten pounds per month.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on August 22, 2009, 02:46:34 PM
Nice work Frederick !

Makes interesting reading, and would make a lot of sense, during that time !!!

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on October 11, 2009, 12:24:21 AM
I now have the names of all the crew from CWGC:

PORTSMOUTH (MILTON) CEMETERY, Hampshire, United Kingdom
 
FREDRICKSON, Cook, OSCAR FABIAN, M.V. Capable (London)., Merchant Navy. 5 June 1940. Age 63. Son of Carl and Caring Fredrickson; husband of May Eveline Fredrickson, of Plymouth. Grave Ref. Plot Y. Row 15. Grave 31.


TOWER HILL MEMORIAL, London, United Kingdom
 
BLOOM, Chief Engineer, CHARLES, M.V. Capable (London), Merchant Navy. 5 June 1940. Age 46. Husband of F. Bloom, of Horsham, Sussex. Panel 23.

HAYWARD, Mate, HERBERT CHARLES FREDERICK, M.V. Capable (London), Merchant Navy. 5 June 1940. Age 35. Son of Robert and Violet Hayward; husband of Eva Hayward, of Caister-on-Sea, Norfolk. Panel 23.

PORTER, Second Engineer Officer, ROBERT, M.V. Capable (London), Merchant Navy. 5 June 1940. Age 25. Panel 23.

SULLIVAN, Master, JOHN DENNIS, M.V. Capable (London), Merchant Navy. 5 June 1940. Age 58. Panel 23.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: liverpool annie on October 12, 2009, 03:03:15 PM

I'm a little behind the eight ball here ... I thought I had some information but rereading the thread I realise you have everything I have ... but I do have a picture of the Capable thats just a little bit bigger !!!!!  :D :D
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on October 14, 2009, 11:23:03 AM
Thanks for the larger image, Liverpool Annie.  The main thing I'm missing now is the time of day when Capable came to grief.  I'm working on that.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Wendi on October 14, 2009, 12:32:59 PM
I paid our respects to Oscar F. Fredrickson today.

Requiescant in pace
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: tonyrod on October 14, 2009, 02:37:51 PM
 nice one wendi, i had forgot about this thread on the mv capable must have been to long on holiday ,

 frederick i think you will need the time she left alderney and reckon on her speed to get a idea of the time she sunk, i have not seen any time  listed on her sinking.  tonyrod

link to my site http://tonyrod.webs.com/

Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: Frederick on October 14, 2009, 08:05:32 PM
Yes Wendi, nice one indeed!
I agree Tonyrod.  I figure it must have been evening time, but I need some fixed time to work from.  As I say, I am working on it.
Title: Re: L/Cpl F.W.Langridge & Pte W.Gregory 1/9th & 2/9th Lost at Sea
Post by: liverpool annie on October 14, 2009, 08:35:25 PM
I paid our respects to Oscar F. Fredrickson today.

Requiescant in pace

That was lovely Wendi !  :)

we're so used to seeing the young boys on the casualty lists ... we tend to forget about the older ones !

RIP Oscar