The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: damopk1 on July 18, 2008, 05:07:18 PM

Title: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 18, 2008, 05:07:18 PM
I am researching my mother's grandfather Richard Lawrence Ward and have found some information on Ancestry but am not sure where to go next.

The information in the WWI Medals Rolls Index says that he was in the 20th Manchester Regiment. That his rank was WOCLII, regimental number 200056. Under Victory are a series of numbers, roll H/1/104 B13 and page 2859.

The meaning of all this is beyond me at the moment. I have looked up the 20th Battalion and found a little info but would be very grateful if anyone has any more information or can point me in the right direction.

Thanks

Damian
Title: Re: 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: mack on July 18, 2008, 05:58:42 PM
your great grandfather,was one of the original 1/5th manchesters
if my info is correct,he was the son of thomas+sarah ward,1 vere st,wigan
occupation,collier
he was 30yrs old when the war began
his father was a railway signal fitter
brother thomas
sister beatrice.

mack
Title: Re: 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 18, 2008, 09:18:38 PM
Thanks Mack. Your info is correct. That's about as far as I've got at this stage. I don't think Sarah was his mother though because she was too young. I have ordered his marriage certificate but I need to send for his birth certificate to confirm his mother's identity.  I think she must have died some time before the 1891 census.

Any info on the battalion and what they did would be gratefully appreciated. I'll have a look on the web myself.

Thanks for your help.

Damian
Title: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: harribobs on July 18, 2008, 10:13:21 PM
hi damian

and welcome

hmmm  mack is ahead of me ::)

i can see his MIC,  which shows him as going abroad after 1915

his service number puts him as a 5th battalion soldier in 1917, but his MIC say he must have been transfered to the 20th!

chris
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 18, 2008, 10:36:29 PM
I have just been looking through the forums and various other websites to learn about the 1/5th. Would my great grandfather have been in Galipoli?

Can anyone recommend any good books on Galipoli?

Thanks for all the help. This is really fascinating.

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: harribobs on July 18, 2008, 11:05:08 PM
damian

i see from your avatar you have a picture of him, can you post it so we can see it please ( we like seeing the men we are researching and can we add it to our gallery!)

(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/334241772_dt2dZ-M.jpg)

my problem at the moment is that i can't see him going out with the 1/5th to gallipoli  (but to i would have expected it), there may be another MIC or mack may have seen something else

chris
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: themonsstar on July 19, 2008, 12:46:31 AM
I feel that Richard would already been in or just joined the 5th Bn in Aug 1914. He may have been given a job training the new 2/5th & 3/5th which would have been looking for good Ptes/NCOs for training the new Battalions. This job would have stop him from moving overseas with the rest of the 1/5th Bn. His number 200056 was issue to him after Jan 1917, He was then posted to the 20th Battalion some time after getting the number, as this is the unit he joined overseas. He then moved to the 12th Battalion at some point before the end of the war.



1/5th Bn sailed from Southampton for Egypt 10/9/14.

2/5th Bn formed at Wigan Aug 1914 Feb 1917 landed in France.

3/5th Bn formed at Wigan May 1915, became a reserve Bn for the 5,6 & 7th Bn.

20th Bn  1917 France, in Nov 1917 moved to Italy until Sept 1918 moved back to France.

12th Bn  1917 France, Sept 1917 absorbed RHQ & two Sqn of the Duke of Lancs Yeo, end of the War in France.
Title: Re: 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: mack on July 19, 2008, 02:35:05 AM
Thanks Mack. Your info is correct. That's about as far as I've got at this stage. I don't think Sarah was his mother though because she was too young. I have ordered his marriage certificate but I need to send for his birth certificate to confirm his mother's identity.  I think she must have died some time before the 1891 census.

Any info on the battalion and what they did would be gratefully appreciated. I'll have a look on the web myself.

Thanks for your help.

Damian
i dont think thomas+sarah were his parents.
its possible,that his parents,were samuel+mary,jane ward.27 hollinwood st,ordsall [1891]other children,thomas,d ward/margaret,a ward/elizabeth.
richard was born in salford.
i think thomas+beatrice,are thomas+sarahs kids.and richard is adopted[possibly his brothers son]

our lassess on here may solve it for you damian.

mack
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 19, 2008, 08:17:25 AM
You're all very kind to help with this. My mum is really curious to learn more as she never met him, apparently he died some time in the 1930s. I have attached a photo of Richard.

As he is in the medal rolls, does this mean he won a medal. Is there any way to find out what this was for?

His parentage is really unclear and I am expecting the marriage and birth certificates will clear up this mystery.

Thanks again

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 19, 2008, 08:27:47 AM
Feel free to add the photo to your archives!
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: tisgrannie on July 19, 2008, 09:49:42 PM
Hi Damian, I have just spent a little while trying to find Richard Lawrence on various sites. Where do you intend getting his birth certificate from. I am just curious. I looked on Lancashire and Free BMD. Do you have a birthdate? I am intrigued I have looked at 1891 Richard looked on that to possibly be Samuel and Mary Janes son. The age fits. He wasn't Lawrence on that. I think that people with a middle name who use it when older usually always use it. I would like to help. I have looked at all the  medal cards for Richard Wards. As is on here, there was only one Richard Lawrence.
The marriage cert should give Fathers name at least.
Look forward to more info coming out.
Best wishes
tisgrannie
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 19, 2008, 10:54:58 PM
Thanks Tisgrannie. I have sent off to the GRO for both his marriage certificate and birth certificate. He was born in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1884 in Salford Vol 8D p120. He was married to Ellen Strong in 1914 Jul-Sep quarter Vol 8c p231. When I get the info (hopefully next week) I'll post it on here.

I have a strong feeling that he wasn't Samuel and Mary Jane's son. My reasoning is that the name Richard Ward shows up as living with Samuel and Mary in both 1891 and 1901. Whereas the name Richard Lawrence Ward shows up as living with Thomas in the 1901 census. Thomas' wife Sarah (who was born in Devon) is too young to be Richard's mother. But in the 1891 census I did find another Richard Ward (born about 1882) living with cousin Joseph Kelly in Salford. The birth dates are a bit of a discrepancy but it could be another possibility.

I'll have a better idea when the certificates arrive and this is all speculation of course but my belief is that Thomas was Richard's father. His mother died in the first 7 years of his life and his father went to work elsewhere in the country (Devon?) leaving Richard with the Kellys who were perhaps related to Richard's mother. Thomas returned with a new wife Sarah and Richard went to live with them.

Funnily enough I am a Kelly too! But there's no connection, I hope...

Thanks. Let me know if this all sounds like nonsense.

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: harribobs on July 20, 2008, 12:16:35 AM
As he is in the medal rolls, does this mean he won a medal. Is there any way to find out what this was for?

he was awarded the british war and the victory medals, they are campaign medals rather than gallantry medals
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 20, 2008, 10:52:06 AM
Thanks Harribobs. That's another piece of the puzzle in place.

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: harribobs on July 20, 2008, 10:11:54 PM
i like that photo a lot, he's showing of his rank badges, marksman and shoulder title off!
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 21, 2008, 06:53:25 AM
I'm afraid I know next to nothing about military matters. Can you tell me what his rank badges, marksman and shoulder title signify?

Thanks

Damian

Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: harribobs on July 21, 2008, 02:06:15 PM
The sergeants stripes and the crown denote his Warrant Officer rank, a high non-commisioned officer (i am open to correction on this! ;D)

the crossed rifles show his proficiency in shooting, he would have been due extra pay

on on the shoulder you have a T with a 5 and under that manchester, this shows his battalion was the 5th (Wigan) battalion

(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/239950197_L8nBw-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 21, 2008, 02:24:18 PM
Thanks Harribobs. My mum says he was a Colour Sergeant Major.

It's funny how things crop up when you are researching your family tree but my mum just told me at the weekend that her sister has a newspaper report on his funeral. Apparently it was quite a big occassion because he helped a lot of people. Nobody has ever mentioned any of this to me before. I'll post a copy of it when I can get one.

I'm becoming quite fascinated by him and am going to gather everything I can find and write an account of his life.

Cheers

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: themonsstar on July 21, 2008, 02:33:25 PM
The photo shows the rank of Colour Sergeant this is not a Warrant Officer rank
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on July 21, 2008, 02:41:10 PM
The photo shows the rank of Colour Sergeant this is not a Warrant Officer rank

Depends when the photo was taken. That rank/appointment badge denotes a CSM prior to 1915, CQMS 1915-18 or Colour/Staff Sergeant 1918 and on.

Dave
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: harribobs on July 21, 2008, 03:25:57 PM
there you go!

we've got the experts on board now!

so are we saying the photo was taken before his promotion to WO cl2?
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on July 21, 2008, 09:21:31 PM
so are we saying the photo was taken before his promotion to WO cl2?

Again, it depends on when the photo was taken (getting confused yet? ;D).

Just using this particular rank badge -

pre feb 1915, a CSM wasn't a WO (but was a WOII from 1915, but badged differently to this (crown on the lower sleeve - the pre Feb 1915 RSM badge)).

CQMS (this badge from 1915-1918) is a WOII.

Colour/Staff Sergeant (this badge 1918 onwards) - not a WOII.


So, if the photo was taken 1915-18, then this photo does indeed show him as a WOII. If it's taken pre-1915 (which I don't think it is) or in 1918 then it shows him before he was a WO.

Clear as mud?  :D

Dave
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Wendi on July 21, 2008, 09:27:33 PM
Dave not to make the mud deeper, but is there any criteria for crossed rifles with a crown above?

ie: forget the stripes

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on July 21, 2008, 09:30:01 PM
Musketry instructor. Trade/skill badges are always worn above the rank badge for NCO's/WO's (but below the rank badge if a WO who is badged on the lower sleeve!). If he wasn't , it'd just be the stripes and the crown

Dave
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on July 21, 2008, 09:44:14 PM
You've actually just got me thinking there Wendi. ("always look beyond the obvious" is one of my mottos! :D)

He could possibly be a Sergeant Musketry Instructor on that pic and not what I've been talking about earlier...mmmm!  :-\  I'll have to have a think about this one!

Dave
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 21, 2008, 09:54:07 PM
I've just learned that the Museum of the Manchester Regiment is in Ashton-Under-Lyne which is just a few miles from where I now live, Broadbottom. I'm going to try to go there on Saturday and see if I can find out anything useful.

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: tisgrannie on July 21, 2008, 10:11:05 PM
Damian. no disrespect to the Museum. Lovely bunch, you have THEE manchester experts right here. I don't think I'm wrong. I go to the Museum for lectures they are running. Garry the Curator is a very nice chap. By all means go and look around. There is also a terrific place over in Ashton at the Archives.
http://www.tameside.gov.uk/familyhistory/archives/material
They actually hold the Manchester Regt Archives. I'm sure someone will verify this shortly.
The Museum is great you will be proud when you see it. Also the Archives when you read the link, they have so much. You can get the newspaper cuttings also. You will find the folks very helpful over there.
Best wishes
tisgrannie
ps. I'm not saying that they aren't good at the Museum. I just truly believe we have quite a few experts on here. Authors, lecturers, Military historians.
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Fritz Bayer on July 21, 2008, 11:57:19 PM
He could possibly be a Sergeant Musketry Instructor on that pic and not what I've been talking about earlier...mmmm!  :-\  I'll have to have a think about this one!

Dave

Ok - I've had a think (and a bit of a dig around) now, and....... without seeing his other sleeve, it's impossible to tell!

The instructor badge would have been worn on the right sleeve only so , if it was 3 chevrons and a crown on his left sleeve, then my first post on this thread would apply (and it all - again- depends on the date of the photo). If only 3 chevrons were to be found on his left sleeve, then he's a Sergeant Musketry Instructor.

However - Musketry instructors tended to be only Sergeants, Colour/Staff Sergeants or QMS's. This, and the fact that he seems to have gone overseas later rather than earlier in the war (most battalion musketry instructors remained in the UK) indicates that this photo was taken before he attained WO status - probably still in the UK and probably as a Sergeant.

Got a headache now! ;D

Dave
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 22, 2008, 08:17:48 AM
Thanks for all the hard work Fritz. It's very complicated and I would never have been able to figure all this out without your knowledge. It's astonishing just how much information can be inferred from a single photograph! Sherlock Holmes would have been impressed.

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Wendi on July 22, 2008, 08:37:04 AM
Got a headache now! ;D
Dave

Sorry Dave I feel responsible !  I'll PM you some paracetamol  :D

Thanks for the research, I knew you'd be able to sort it out, and I found your explanation very interesting.

Wendi  :)
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 22, 2008, 01:45:23 PM
I just read that Wilfred Owen trained with the 3/5th Manchesters. If my great grandfather did remain in England rather than go to Galipoli is it likely they would have met?

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: damopk1 on July 30, 2008, 02:07:17 PM
I've cleared up the mystery surrounding who Richard's father was. According to Richard's marriage certificate his father was Thomas Ward.

However, the birth certificate I received for Richard did not have the middle name Lawrence and the father was Samuel. I think that this was a different person but I cannot find a record of any Richard Lawrence Ward born around this time. This makes me think that he did not take the name Lawrence until later (perhaps as a confirmation name, the family is Catholic) and he was born as simply Richard Ward but not in Salford.

Another interesting fact I learned from my mother this weekend was that Richard was a boxing referee.

Damian
Title: Re: Richard Lawrence Ward 20th Manchester Regiment
Post by: Wendi on July 30, 2008, 05:56:06 PM
Hey good news Damian ! 

Certificates can confirm a lot, and are often worth getting, as this case proves.  I think your conclusions work, but always keep an open mind  ;D

Wendi