The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: Tim Bell on September 13, 2020, 06:02:10 PM

Title: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on September 13, 2020, 06:02:10 PM
I've always been interested to address the changes that took place in the nature of the Pals after Montauban & Trones Wood for 90th Brigade Battalions.  We know that drafts arrived from numerous Battalions of different Regiments before the assault on Guillemont.  Analysis has always been difficult because the men were attached, rather than transferred and CWGC rarely idenitfied attachments.  18th Bttn War Diary gives an excellent breakdown of casuaties for men attached, including members of 12 different Bttns of the Lancs Fusils and 8 other Regiments. 
Hidden away in Medal Rolls, Soldiers Effects, Service and CWGC records are numerous references to attachments. I'm compiling a list for CWGC to update attachments (which also provides the opportunity to add NoK and full names).  This currently shows 63 men from 14 Regiments where attachment is confirmed.  56 dead men were also attached to 2nd RSF - all Scottish Regiments. This should result in 12 commemorations being moved to Theipval from the Menin Gate, Loos or Ploegstreet Memorials.
I have more checking to do on 18th Bttn casualties and will submit the changes.  Ultimately I've only scraped the surface where proof is avaliable ; too may Service Records are missing, or have lost the Casualty Record.  There are many men who were assumed dead, serving in units away from the line, so it is pressing logic that they were also attached.
I'll work on some likely cases later, to see what I think the picture shows.
Any tips are welcome.
Tim
Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 02, 2020, 07:19:13 AM
18th Manchesters Lancashire Fusiliers from Middlesex

18th Bttn War Diary records 440 Other Ranks from 28 units arrived on 13 July 1918.

18th Bttn records of 18/Lancs Fusils being drafted in prior to Guillemont provides an impression that the Clerks and Warehouseman of the 3rd Pals were being reinforced by other local men; possibly not the same background, but Labourers from Salford or Cotton Spinners from Bury.  This was certainly not a valid assumption.
Three existing records for 30/07/1916 casualties of 18/Lancs Fusils identify men attached to 18th Manchesters. One of this group was from Blackburn and previously enlisted in 22/Lancs Fusils.  More intriguing are 2 Londoners, who previously served in the Middlesex Regiment.
21 further names have been put forward to CWGC where evidence confirms attachment to 18th Bttn from 18/Lancs Fusils. Most of these men (14) were from the London area and had been attached from the Middlesex Regiment.
In common with many avenues of research service records have been lost for the 18/Lancs Fusils killed at Guillemont and few records have been identified for any men attached to 18th Battalion.  Alfred Thomas Williamson provides one example of the path taken by one man from north London to Guillemont and later presumed dead at Heninel on 23 April 1917. The surprising element is that Alfred never joined 18/Lancs Fuils in the field.  This is a strong explanation for the reason why many attachments were not noted.  The commanders of 18/Lancs Fusils had never seen Alfred, or any of his draft.
Alfred Williamson was a Messenger attested for General Service in 22/Middx G/16901 at Kilburn on 9 August and later joined at Mill Hill Barracks on 17 August 1915.  At 5’1” Alfred below the minimum height requirements and 22/Middx was a Bantams Bttn.  They trained at Mill Hill, Aldershot, Bordon? And Pirbright.
The Middx Bantams were to be disbanded in April 1916 and Alfred was posted to 14/Middx in March. He was then transferred to 10/Suffolks at Shoreham in April 1916 to complete his training.
Alfred was transferred to 22/Lancs Fusils, 33274, on 15 June 1916 and Posted to the BEF with 18/Lancs Fusils disembarking in France on 24 June and joining 35 IBD at Etaples.  As part of the draft Alfred was attached to 18th Manchesters on 13 July.  It wasn’t until 15 September that Alfred was transferred to 18th Bttn, 43697.
Alfred’s sister Louisa received his Effects at 151 Brondesbury Park, Willesden Green. His father Alfred and mother were deceased and his step mother was Ada Williamson.

Pte 43702 Charles Edward Carter had the same enlistment Bttns and transfer dates prior his death on 23/4/1917. Formerly G/21650, 22/Middlesex Regt. & 10/Suffolks
Also Pte  43693 George Victor Blick. Killed at Flers 12/10/1916. Formerly G/21620, Middlesex Regt. Service Record has same dates.
Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 02, 2020, 05:40:03 PM
Lancashire Fusiliers from Suffolk

SDGW identifies 5 men serving with 18/Lancs Fusils having transferred from the Suffolk Regiment.  These men are all confirmed as being attached to 18th Bttn.
No service records have been found for the group, although it appears that this was part of the same draft transferred from 10/Suffolks to 22/Lancs Fusils and posted to the BEF with 18th BEF –consistent with Alfred Williamson.  Most of the group had family in East Anglia, although some have London addresses, indicating they may have enlisted in the Middx R, prior to the Suffolks posting.
An example of a transfer from 10/Suffolks to the BEF with 18/Lancs Fusils is Laurence Cubitt, who transferred to 18th Bttn on the same date as Alfred Williamson.  Laurance Cubitt enlisted in the Suffolks on 22 November 1915.  He was posted to Depot and then 10/Suffolks on 8 January 1916.  Consistent with Alfred Williamson, he was transferred to 22/Lancs Fusils on 15 June 1916, posted to France with 18/Lancs Fusils at 35 IBD on 24 June and attached to 18th Bttn on 13 July and transferred on 15 September.  Laurence Cubitt was killed at Flers on 12 October. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/263954/cubitt,-/  (https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/263954/cubitt,-/)
See http://www.brandonatwar.co.uk/1914-18/memorial-names/laurence-cubitt/  (http://www.brandonatwar.co.uk/1914-18/memorial-names/laurence-cubitt/)

Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 03, 2020, 03:15:30 PM
18th Lancashire Fuiliers attached to 18th Bttn
18th Bttn War Diary records 5 men wounded and 79 Missing at Guillemont attached from 18/Lancs Fusils.  The 18/Lancs Fusils War Diary notes no casualties on 30 July, when the Bttn moved up to the Line in Reserve and returned unused in the advance.
57 CWGC casualties are recorded for 18/Lancs Fusils.  3 are currently recorded as attached to 18th Bttn and 22 others are being processed.  This leaves 32 men unaccounted for in 18/Lancs Fusils War Diary.
14 x 18/Lancs Fusils casualties confirmed as attached to 18th Bttn formerly served with the Middx Regt. 12 other men are known to have transferred from the Middx Regt, but the probable attachment is unconfirmed.  They were all missing presumed dead apart from Pte 25475 William Kelly.  He is buried in Serre Road No 2 after being concentrated from the Guillemont area, where his original plot was shared with men from 2/RSF.  The Burial record also shows Pte Kelly’s Suffolk Regiment Number.
5 x 18/Lancs Fusils confirmed as attached to 18th Bttn formerly served with the Suffolk Regt (many of whom will have enlisted in Mddx Regt). 16 other men are known to have transferred from the Suffolks, but any attachment is unconfirmed.  All these men were presumed dead and commemorated at Thiepval, apart from two, who have known graves – including Pte Kelly.
6 x 18/Lancs Fusils confirmed as attached to 18th Bttn have no record of previous Regiments and most were resident in Lancashire. One has a London address and probably arrived via Middx & Suffolks.  Five other men 18/Lancs Fusil died on 30 July, with no known attachment or previous service.
Conclusion
A large group of 18/Lancs Fusils will be commemorated as having been attached to 18th Bttn.  Many other attachments can’t be proven, even though there is evidence many of these men formed the same draft as the confirmed attachments. Most were missing presumed dead and others were buried near Guillemont.  While 18/Lancs Fusils had no casualties on 30 July 1916, we cannot prove the casualties were not attached to another unit, even though there is no evidence of such (one 16th Bttn error excluded) and all the circumstances direct that the dead men were killed serving with 18th Bttn.  In my view, we have the safest assessment of 57 casualties recorded in the War Diary out of 79 men reported missing.
Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 03, 2020, 04:30:11 PM
Other Lancs Fusils attached to the Manchesters
18th Bttn War Diary records many men attached from Lancs Fusils, posted as Missing at Guillemont, from 11 different Bttns. 
None of these men have been found.  Identification is challenging, as the CWGC casualties may have been posted to their identified unit, or attached to other Regiments. Two members of 17/Lancs Fuils have been found attached to 17/KLR and CWGC have been advised.  One of these men is commemorated on the Loos Memorial and this will be changed to Thiepval.
Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 03, 2020, 04:57:08 PM
Other Regiment’s attachments to 18th Bttn
18th Bttn lists various other casualties and illustrates part of the nature of the 13 July 1916 draft.
Loyals  1 Wounded 1 Missing. Not identified
E Lancs  2 Wounded 2 Missing.  Not identified.  CWGC show 2 men from 1/E Lancs att. to 17th Bttn.
1/Buffs 1 Wounded (E Kents!)
1/E Kents 1 Wounded 1 Missing. Pte G/6568 John Rumney was attached to 18th Bttn and confirmed as attached from 1/E Kents.  His commemoration will be moved from the Menin Gate to Thiepval. A casualty from 6/EKents has been found to be attached to 17th Bttn.
2/Queens 2 Missing.  No 2/Queens deaths on 30 July 1916
12th Bttn 5 Missing.  One casualty on 30 July was Pte 4325 James Dutton who was att. to 17th Bttn

The War Diary identifies 11 men KIA and 209 Missing. CWGC has 106 18th Bttn records for 30 July.  Many others were captured.


Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 03, 2020, 05:42:01 PM
Attachments to 17th Bttn

1/E Kents.  Pte G/337 Alfred Mills will have attachment added by CWGC

7/S Lancs. Three men will have attachment added by CWGC.

16/Sherwood Foresters. Pte 27015 Ernest Keward will have attachment added by CWGC. Commemoration to be moved from Loos to Thiepval Memorial.

9/R Sussex.   Pte G/4683 Harry Albert Fisher will have attachment added by CWGC. Commemoration to be moved from Menin Gate to Thiepval

32/Royal Fusils. Christian Graysmith’s attachment is already recorded. Sgt 1937 Tom Hartland will have attachment added by CWGC and commemoration moved to Thiepval from Ploegsteert.  (An attachment to 20/KLR has also been reported).

5/Royal Berks. 3 men will have attachment added by CWGC. 2 other men were probably attached. (1 other man was att to 20/KLR)

18/Middx Regt. 4 men will have attachment added by CWGC. 2 others are unconfirmed.

1/E Surreys. Pte 1161 Herbert Walsham    will have attachment added by CWGC.

1/E Lancs. 2 men already identified on attachment by CWGC. 3rd Man with similar no. commemorated on Menin Gate

25/N'Land Fusils 30/257 James O'Hare(Arras Memorial) appears to be part of a draft originating from 30th Reserve Tyneside Irish and posted to BEF with 25th Tyneside Irish, but unconfirmed. 43198 Francis O'Connor (30/272) 43210 Edward Wilikinson (30/267) and 43195 (30/28135) Thomas Haggerty were attached to 17th Bttn 12/07/1916 and transferred 1/9/1916.

10/Cheshires Pte 43210 John Southern was attached on 11/07/1916 and transferred on 1/9/1916. Formerly 33126, 10/Cheshire Regt. Also Pte 43214 Allen Pearson Formerly 33160,10/ Cheshire Regt.

1/Queens R W Surreys. Pte Thomas Charles Juniper was transferred to 17th Bttn on 1/9/1916. Date of Att. n/k. Formerly G/4252, Royal West Surrey Regt.

8/Loyal N Lancs. Sgt T Hindley was presumed dead and later buried at Delville Wood Cem.  8/Loyals were not in the area and there are subsequent LNL casualites transferred to 17th Bttn

Suffolks.  43263 Reginald Thomson.     Formerly 22957, Suffolk Regt. Date of Att n/k but number sequence fits transfer on 1/9/1916. Possibly later posting from 18th Bttn.


Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 04, 2020, 12:58:32 PM
16th Bttn attachments at Guillemont

12/Sherwood Foresters. 2 men established CWGC  attachments. 1 man will have attachment added by CWGC. 1 man buried at Guillemont Rd, unconfirmed att.

15/Sherwood Foresters. 1 man will have attachment added by CWGC. 2 men commemorated at Thiepval unconfirmed att.

16/Sherwood Foresters. 1 man will have attachment added by CWGC and commemoration to be moved from Loos to Thiepval. 2 men death presumed. May be 17th Bttn.

5/OBLI.  1 man will have attachment added by CWGC. 2 men death presumed. Some of this draft were transferred from Worcesters.

18/Lancs Fusil.  1 man will have attachment added by CWGC.  This maybe an error and actually att to 18th Bttn. Other Lancs Fusils were posted to 16th Bttn in Sept 1916

1/Borders. 8 men will have attachment added by CWGC. 7 of these commemorations will be moved from Menin Gate to Thiepval. 3 other men have no evidence of att.

2/Borders. 1 man will have attachment added by CWGC.

7/Borders. 3 men will have attachment added by CWGC. 2 other men have no evidence of att.

11/Borders. 1 man already has attachment noted at Serre Road No 2.

1/Essex. 1 man fits number sequence for 1/9/1916 transfer.

1/KORL. 1 man fits number sequence for 1/9/1916 transfer.



Title: Re: Guillemont 30th July 1916 - 90th Bgd Attachments
Post by: Tim Bell on October 04, 2020, 01:30:25 PM
2/RSF attachments at Guillemont
47 Soldiers of the Royal Scots & Highland Light Infantry are commemorated by CWGC as deaths on 30 July 1916.  All of these are found to have been attached to 2/RSF on 17/07/1916.
2/R Scots. 1 established commemoration for attachment. 8 Additions.
11/R Scots. 14 additional attachments.
13/R Scots. 1 Additional attachment.
15/R Scots. 1 established commemoration for attachment. 10 Additions. All of these men were Scottish – rather than part of the Manchester contingent.
10/11/HLI 12 Additions
13/HLI . Att to RSF. Bttn n/k