The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: PhilipG on August 18, 2019, 11:16:53 AM

Title: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 18, 2019, 11:16:53 AM
This NCO whose NOK resided in Oldham, was killed in action at Joncourt on the 1st October 1918 when the 2nd Manchesters stormed the Beaurevoir - Fonsomme Line.     This was an action in which Wilfred Owen also took part, gaining the award of a Military Cross.    I take it that the Military Medal award to Sgt. Savage would also be in connection with the Joncourt attack.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 18, 2019, 03:24:10 PM
hiya Philip
I think you need better help than I can be with this,sgt savages MM was gazetted on 24-1-19,i have a small list of 9 others from the 2nd battalion whos MMs were gazetted on this date,you need someone who is good with the London gazette to determine what time frame these awards were from.
sgt savages death on 1st October kind of rules out a MM for this action because its not awarded posthumously,but WW1 throws up all kinds of surprises

Charlie may be able to help you with sgt savage,he was mentioned twice in the Oldham chronicle on 21-9-18 and 1-2-19,charlie knows the contact details for the chronicle,hopefully it might say where he won his MM


sgt 7683 harry martin 2nd battalion,was also gazetted a MM on the same date,he was killed on 13-9-18

could these MMs be for actions before October


when sgt savage was killed,he and his family were living at 20 fisher st,oldham

mack
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 18, 2019, 03:29:51 PM
Mack,

Many thanks. PhilipG
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 18, 2019, 03:48:33 PM
hiya Philip
don't know if this is of use to you.

L/Cpl later act/sgt 9025 William glynn was also gazetted a MM on this date,this was his second award,the first was gazetted on 26th may 1917,on 4th November 1918 on the ors canal,he earned a DCM while trying to capture the german army on his own :)

mack
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 18, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Mack,

Thanks.   From your research it seems possible that the award of the MM was for gallantry at Francilly-Selency around the 2nd April 1917 when Owen lay out in freezing conditions with a much depleted battalion.  Perhaps an involvement in the capture of the German guns.   Thanks again. PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 18, 2019, 07:38:22 PM
hiya Philip
another of the men in the list was sgt 1483 Edward louis lavelle,its believed that his MM was for a action in august or early sept 1918,sgt 7683 harry martin who I have already mentioned[above]died of wounds on 13th September.

mack
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 18, 2019, 08:09:35 PM
Mack,

Thank you.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: charlie on August 18, 2019, 09:18:33 PM
I‘ll see what I can do with the the Oldham Chron.

Sgt Savage‘s award of the MM is recorded in the War Diary on 4th Sept 1918. The way the soldiers are mentioned in order of seniority - CSM down to Pte and then Sgts again - suggests to me that Sgt Savage could have been recommended at a different time to Sgt Lavelle.

Charlie
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 19, 2019, 02:36:53 AM
this means these awards are most likely for acts in august,the war diary has solved it for Philip,nice work Charlie

mack
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 19, 2019, 05:05:45 AM
the MMs gazetted on 14th may 1919 appear to be for the fighting on the st quentin canal in September[MM sgt 27923 Edward coleman st quentin]

ime fairly sure the MMs gazetted on 23rd july 1919 are for the actions in October 1918,there was quite a few awarded to 2nd battalion
28740 walter higham MM gazetted 23rd july,joined the 2nd battalion on 3rd sept 1918,granted 14 days leave on 8th oct till 22nd oct

mack
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: Bob.NB on August 19, 2019, 11:10:13 AM
Howard Williamson's Great War Medal Collectors Companion states that the MMs gazetted inThe London Gazette of 24 January 1919  were for the Battle of Amiens, 8 August 1918 to 3 September 1918 plus other awards for Italy and Salonika.
Bob B 
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 20, 2019, 10:25:25 AM
Mack, Charlie, & Bob B,

 Thank you for your help in this matter.  I suppose it is not always possible to learn of the act of bravery in winning an MM and where it took place, but many thanks for your efforts.    PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 20, 2019, 10:45:31 AM
sgt savage was mentioned in the battalions raid operations order No1 for the raid on 1st july 1918

mack
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 20, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Thank you Mack.   Sergeant Savage comes over as a brave soldier.   He is buried, of course, in Joncourt British Cemetery.   It so happens, that in the past I have needed to visit this cemetery - re 203357 Pte. T. Jones of the 2nd Manchesters, comes to mind.  The cemetery is mostly given over to casualties suffered by the Lancashire Fusiliers and the 2nd Manchesters, so my eye was immediately drawn to one particular grave, namely that of Pte. W.V. Thompson of the 20th Hussars who was kia on the 30th September 1918.

Following the rapid advance of British troops at the time, it had become of increasing concern to the General Staff as to the locations of the various attacking infantry battalions.  Thus, in September 1918 it was decided to use cavalry units of various numbers (e.g. officers' patrols and above) to report accordingly.

I suggest that Pte. Thompson of the Hussars was killed looking for the progress of the Lancashire Fusiliers and 2nd Manchesters, who at that time, were approaching the Joncourt area.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 21, 2019, 09:49:35 AM
I note that Private Thompson gave the names of his parents as being his next of kin.   I looked up their address and I see that a 3 bedroom flat is for sale today in their street at a price of £649,500.     PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: mack on August 21, 2019, 03:51:50 PM
Thank you Mack.   Sergeant Savage comes over as a brave soldier.   He is buried, of course, in Joncourt British Cemetery.   It so happens, that in the past I have needed to visit this cemetery - re 203357 Pte. T. Jones of the 2nd Manchesters, comes to mind.  The cemetery is mostly given over to casualties suffered by the Lancashire Fusiliers and the 2nd Manchesters, so my eye was immediately drawn to one particular grave, namely that of Pte. W.V. Thompson of the 20th Hussars who was kia on the 30th September 1918.

Following the rapid advance of British troops at the time, it had become of increasing concern to the General Staff as to the locations of the various attacking infantry battalions.  Thus, in September 1918 it was decided to use cavalry units of various numbers (e.g. officers' patrols and above) to report accordingly.

I suggest that Pte. Thompson of the Hussars was killed looking for the progress of the Lancashire Fusiliers and 2nd Manchesters, who at that time, were approaching the Joncourt area.   PhilipG.
pte 203357 tom jones,16 ellesmere st,wigan

his officer wrote to his family and told them what happened

I detailed pte jones and four other orderlies to carry a wounded comrade out,he left the dugout just before the others,carrying the equipment of one of the others,and he was never seen again,i would have notified you earlier but I was hoping that he might have come through one of our CCSs,i fear I can hold little hope and the worst has happened,he was my orderly at Colchester until the CO desired his services

worked at cleworth hall pit
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 22, 2019, 11:00:55 AM
Mack,

Thank you for the detail relating to Pte. Tom Jones.   My visit all those years ago was in connection with Wilfred Owen.     As to the officer's remarks, perhaps his words "he was never seen again" could have been better phrased.

My reference to Pte. Thompson's NOK address was prompted by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's invariable practice, as you will know, to ensure "equality in death".   I thought this was an example of that excellent custom.   PhilipG.
Title: Re: 376529 Sgt. John Percival Savage MM : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt.
Post by: PhilipG on August 24, 2019, 10:56:02 AM

In the History of the British Cavalry (Marquess of Anglesey) we are advised that soon after actions in the region of Joncourt, "the 20th Hussars were sent to the American Corps...."    PhilipG.